Question on legalities and the records kept.

[Frenchy]

I keep reading these OC CC threads and the same question pops into my mind, some thing a lawyer once said to me and yet others here confirmed.

While carrying a gun, DO NOT carry you lawyers card with you…

Now Rich, Greg don’t take this wrong, I appreciate the work you do, but even you have to realize that there are a few people here who have “Special circumstances” where any type of arrest can be detrimental to their work.
Moderators, IF you feel this question has been asked time and again, It has not, Read it again and see my intent here. This is very real to me. If you still feel it is already covered, Humor me, I dont ask for much.

Seems that from the lawyers point of view, if you are carrying his card, he then has to defend you against intent..
IE: if you have a prominent lawyers card on your, and you one day defend your life with deadly force… Cops search you and come up with Joe blow Esquire… only to find out Joe blow is not just a lawyer, but a lawyer that mainly deals is firearm rights and his main client database is all about protecting people who go about their lives and end up shooting some one to re-claim their “Freedom”.

Now you may have this card because you met Joe Blow at the golf course and you both have the same schedule and you think I can call him some day when I need a partner on the links… But the police and the DA are sure to mention to the Judge that Mr. Joe Blow Esquire is in fact a lawyer that deals almost exclusively with people who have shot some one and need defense. Having Joe Blows card on you now make is look like you had the intent to go shoot some one and also have a lawyer ready to defend you for it.

The Open Carry pamphlet every one keeps talking about sort of reminds me of this.
If I go to the store, and I have sunglasses on, (perfectly legal) I don’t feel the need to carry special pamphlet by R-ban or any other manufacturer that says it is perfectly legal for me to go shopping with these glasses on. They might scare the hell out of some, but it is not illegal. And say I was driving a motor cycle or even just a jeep on the trails or a Quad, I would not feel the need to carry little pamphlets saying it is legal for me to have a face mask and helmet on me either… I would also not feel the need to have the reciept of these items on me even if i had bought every article mentionned and moer at this same store..

If I was stopped by the manager of a large chain told that my face mask and helmet scare people and that the fact that I chose to wear sunglasses in a store while holding gloves helmet and face mask to protect me from the bugs out there scares people, I would roar out laughing and keep walking.. The only reason I could think of giving this manager any little pamphlets would be to say I EXPECT him to be freaked out, and I am going to go out of my way to show him what an ass he is. So now let’s push this further, the Manager feels so uncomfortable, he calls the cops to help him… Now I had out little flyers to the cops showing them what fools they are. No law says I can not wear or have in my possession a mask to protect my self against flies, and a helmet to protect myself from a bad fall and gloves to protect my fingers from the road elements. Sunglasses I see better with and no law says I cant wear them 24/24 if I so chose... Pamphlet says it’s legal right there… Need my glasses to read it?

Can you see how stupid this really is? Now say the manager saw me pick up a pack of gun, and because I had so many items already in my hands the went into my helmet and where covered by the face mask and gloves I have also in the helmet, and seeing I needed an extra hand to pull out my little flyers… In court the DA would probably say that I had a mask, glasses and gloves to “conceal” my identity while attempting to rob the store… Now I pull out my little pamphlets and show them to the judge and the DA says AND you’re Honor, we found a card on this person who mainly protects his clients against retail theft…
Oy’ Vey! I now need a little pamphlet that shows having a business card on me is also legal…

So here is the question I have. I would appreciate if only LEO and lawyers answered this one. Having a right to carry pamphlet on me or this pamphlet every one says I should have and hand out to the sheeple, while in the store open carrying or even concealed carrying, I have problems with the manager and or police.. Would I be better handing out little pamphlets or keeping them to myself and knowing my rights as a resident of these fine United States of America and the laws of the great State of Pennsylvania?

Could carrying a pamphlet actually cause me more harm then not? And by this let me explain. I work in security, I need my licensees to practice what I do and have been doing for what seems like a hundred years. Could the mere idea of having these pamphlets/Flyers classify me as an activist or show my intent to rebel against the government?

Could it be like many who where in Woodstock so many years ago, the people who did rebel marches against Vietnam and presently have files against them that My present employer or any future employer would do a background check on me and say Hmm. Mr. Frenchy, you have an impressive resume here, but you left out the part where you rebelled against the state! We can’t have that at Acme Security!

Just wondering if it would not be better if I had the pamphlet for my own protection at home where I could make a call and have it read over the phone that what I was doing in the store is perfectly legal, or better yet, have my Lawyer represent me in court and show my activity was completely legal then to try to represent my self.. In the field none the less with police who can say anything happened after the fact.
You know they do say don’t argue with the cop giving the ticket, go to court and settle it with the Judge..
The reason I ask this of lawyers and police here is simple, I do have 7 licenses to practice the work I do, losing even one of them, would be grounds for immediate termination from my employer. Not to mention, having lived here for the past seven years on a green card… It could also be in jeopardy.

Reminder, this is not a thread about OC vs. CC or anything of the sort, it is a legitimate question asked to the LEO and lawyers here about what would be better to do in a certain circumstance. Although I generally do not OC, when ever I am out and about, I generally only have a cover shirt on not buttoned to cover my gun.
I am not interested in what people think of it, I need to know what the law says about the aftermath of such an encounter. Is there a record kept or would the encounter never make the desk of the police?

[Wynder]

I would appreciate if only LEO and lawyers answered this one.

I am neither a LEO, nor a Lawyer, though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I am working towards my Juris Doctor. Oh well.

Seems that from the lawyers point of view, if you are carrying his card, he then has to defend you against intent

Unless you're going to court to fight a traffic ticket or some other strict liability offense, intent always plays a factor. Even if it's not specifically referenced in the statute, the default Mens Rea requirement is Recklessness with Intentionally and Purposely also satisfying that requirement.

The larger question here is, "Intent of what?" You gave the example of wearing sunglasses -- what was your intent there? Keeping the sun out of your eyes. For people who lawfully and peaceably open carry, their intent is, nine times our of ten, self-defense. However, it's known to them that this behavior, while lawful, is controversial and, as such, they are prepared to inform, educate and have their rights defended.

The fact that the person wound up in court for perfectly lawful behavior would, on its face, defeat any argument against NOT carrying the card of an attorney, so I wouldn't see prosecution bringing it up in the first place, not to mention that the prosecution, attempting to impune the defendant simply because of his association with the defense attorney would likely wind up drawing scorn from the Jurist.

[pex]

attempting to impune the defendant simply because of his association with the defense attorney would likely wind up drawing scorn from the Jurist.

...but not a sheeple jury.

[Pa. Patriot]

...Seems that from the lawyers point of view, if you are carrying his card, he then has to defend you against intent..

Stop right there.

Where is the evidence that having your attorneys card on you has ever been used to prove "intent" to the detriment of a person?

Knowing what my attorney told me, when he gave me his card (which I will keep secret for now)... I too am interested in the answers received, and if the above has even ever happened.

I won't answer the rest of your post since your looking for LEO and attorney answers. But I will point out that the flyers were never intended to be used in the manner your implying. Been discussed multiple times. However, having the flyer on you in such an instance, or if someone were to use in that fasion, it's an interesting hypothetical Q.

...But I bet the answer is the same as the attorney card

[Wynder]

...but not a sheeple jury.

The Jury is the Jury. The Jurist is the Judge.

The First Amendment gives us the right to freely associate -- it would bear no weight to the case and would most likely be thrown out.

[pex]

The Jury is the Jury. The Jurist is the Judge.

I'm just saying all the jury needs to do is hear such a suggestion -- you can't just strike it from their minds.

[Frenchy]

Thank you Wynder for the negative Rep points. You don’t have to like what I am asking, but you do have to respect that I need to know.

Again, I ask that this not turn into an OC vs. CC debate, we have enough of this, I am asking about the legalities of such an event, the possible repercussions of it and or if this would ever make it to an official report.

My main concern is that there are some of us here who hold licenses and or permits to work that are in jeopardy for even minor offences. IE: there is a member here who also mentioned to me that the mere repercussions of open carrying and the possibility of being arrested keep him from doing it because his employer would be notified on the spot. This includes many types of arrest, One of the conditions of the Green card I have is to comply with all laws and hold a clean record. Same is true of my employment.

I am asking if an event such as trying to teach a manager and police would go in a file somewhere and cause me trouble later on.

As for what you like that I post or not, I dont old a large value to it.

Don't like posts that are only restricted to one class of poster.

[Wynder]

I'm just saying all the jury needs to do is hear such a suggestion -- you can't just strike it from their minds.

Something as significant to a case, such as intent, is most likely going to go through a motion to dismiss or exclusion to a Judge after discovery. If the Judge strikes it down, the case either gets tossed or the Jury won't hear it at all.

[Wynder]

Thank you Wynder for the negative Rep points. You don’t have to like what I am asking, but you do have to respect that I need to know.

I dislike the fact that you seek to restrict who may reply to your post. I think it's a great question to ask, but one does not need to be a law enforcement officer or have a Juris Doctor to provide an answer.

[Frenchy]

I dislike the fact that you seek to restrict who may reply to your post. I think it's a great question to ask, but one does not need to be a law enforcement officer or have a Juris Doctor to provide an answer.

Your saying this to some one who would lose instantly their house, their truck and possibly be sent back to their country of origin.

I think I have the right to have the question answered by who I feel is best suited to answer it.