Is ePICS Illegal?

[IronSight]

I swore off this forum in resounding fashion, but occasionally find my way back here. I'm actually starting a new thread because I'm seriously concerned over a new issue and am looking to see if posters here are in agreement or if I'm completely reading 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) wrong.

See full statute here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...n=11&subsctn=0

For those of you who don't know the PSP has just launched electronic access to the Pennsylvania Instant Check System for dealers. While, if implemented correctly, I would consider this a positive thing my reading of 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) leads me to believe that the statute must be changed before online access to PICS for running background checks is actually legal.

(b) Duty of seller.--No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has:

...

(3) Requested by means of a telephone call that the Pennsylvania State Police conduct a criminal history, juvenile delinquency history and a mental health record check. The purchaser and the licensed dealer shall provide such information as is necessary to accurately identify the purchaser. The requester shall be charged a fee equivalent to the cost of providing the service but not to exceed $2 per buyer or transferee.

I don't see how electronic access is legal when the statue explicitly states that dealer requests for the record check be "by means of a telephone call". The penalties are severe for violating this statute, even if its for a stupid reason such as this, and it seems the PSP just told every dealer in the state they can ignore 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3)'s literal reading and risk misdemeanors and felonies under 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(g)(1)&(h)(1) by doing so.

So am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing allowing dealers to actually request records by means other than a phone call? Or is this a case of the PSP ignoring statutes again and leaving dealers with a choice of following PSP direction or following the law?

[twency]

I swore off this forum in resounding fashion, but occasionally find my way back here. I'm actually starting a new thread because I'm seriously concerned over a new issue and am looking to see if posters here are in agreement or if I'm completely reading 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) wrong.

See full statute here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...n=11&subsctn=0

For those of you who don't know the PSP has just launched electronic access to the Pennsylvania Instant Check System for dealers. While, if implemented correctly, I would consider this a positive thing my reading of 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) leads me to believe that the statute must be changed before online access to PICS for running background checks is actually legal.



I don't see how electronic access is legal when the statue explicitly states that dealer requests for the record check be "by means of a telephone call". The penalties are severe for violating this statute, even if its for a stupid reason such as this, and it seems the PSP just told every dealer in the state they can ignore 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3)'s literal reading and risk misdemeanors and felonies under 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(g)(1)&(h)(1) by doing so.

So am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing allowing dealers to actually request records by means other than a phone call? Or is this a case of the PSP ignoring statutes again and leaving dealers with a choice of following PSP direction or following the law?

The solution is for dealers to use dial-up (telephone call-based) internet service.

Seriously though, that's an interesting question. The electronic access may honor the spirit of the statute but it doesn't seem to satisfy the letter of the law.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

The solution is for dealers to use dial-up (telephone call-based) internet service.

Seriously though, that's an interesting question. The electronic access may honor the spirit of the statute but it doesn't seem to satisfy the letter of the law.

If that would be legal, that anyone using a wireless hotspot (ie from their cell phone) to connect to the Internet should be just has valid.
I would also think that with the invention & common application of Internet based phones that you could argue any Internet access is phone access.

I had a local (PA) "landline" number through Skype when in Iraq.
Google provides (free I think) phone service to your computer....

[Exbiker]

Seems like the laws and statutes haven't caught up with technology and need attention. The way I read it you are correct.

[WCMG]

Good question IronSight. We just received our account information yesterday for ePics and I only logged in to create an account to see what the site looked like.

I will write to the PSP Firearm Division today and ask them about the statue explicitly stating a phone call will be made for PICS. I'll update this thread when I hear back from them.

[knight0334]

To the letter of the law it does seem to be in violation. However I do welcome a change in law or regulation to allow an ePICS method.

[CHEMICAL]

In order to access portalxl, clean and jnet you must be signed up for an account and take an online test provided by PSP. You must also sign an agreement of privacy and be fingerprinted yourself. If you use this system without that clearance you are committing a crime.

[WhiteFeather]

To the letter of the law it does seem to be in violation. However I do welcome a change in law or regulation to allow an ePICS method.

Does the letter of the law include the cash the PSP get for the phone, IF its electronic only, does the PSP still get to charge you for a non-phone call?

Always follow the money

Since there is no human direct human interaction required as with eNICS, what should IF any cost be from the PSP?

See OP for reference to law 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) as its says not to exceed $2 per, it could be nothing if the PSP wishes.

Is this a case of selective application of obeying the letter of the law when its suits the PSP or is there a double standard between an agency of government vs the rest of US having to follow the letter of the laws?

[twency]

Does the letter of the law include the cash the PSP get for the phone, IF its electronic only, does the PSP still get to charge you for a non-phone call?

Always follow the money

Since there is no human direct human interaction required as with eNICS, what should IF any cost be from the PSP?

See OP for reference to law 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) as its says not to exceed $2 per, it could be nothing if the PSP wishes.

Is this a case of selective application of obeying the letter of the law when its suits the PSP or is there a double standard between an agency of government vs the rest of US having to follow the letter of the laws?

Well there's necessarily some cost for the internet check infrastructure as well. But it might well be less than $2 per check. (Indeed, I'd be surprised if the telephone system costs $2 per check to operate.)

Legally it could not "be nothing if the PSP wishes", they are required to charge actual cost or $2 per transferee, whichever is lower.

The requester shall be charged a fee equivalent to the cost of providing the service but not to exceed $2 per buyer or transferee.

[knight0334]

Does the letter of the law include the cash the PSP get for the phone, IF its electronic only, does the PSP still get to charge you for a non-phone call?

Always follow the money

Since there is no human direct human interaction required as with eNICS, what should IF any cost be from the PSP?

See OP for reference to law 18 PA.C.S. § 6111(b)(3) as its says not to exceed $2 per, it could be nothing if the PSP wishes.

Is this a case of selective application of obeying the letter of the law when its suits the PSP or is there a double standard between an agency of government vs the rest of US having to follow the letter of the laws?

With an ePICS - there shouldn't be a surcharge. That $2 surcharge is supposed to pay for the phone call.

In this day and age of broadband and Hi-Cap circuits - you don't pay for bandwidth unless you exceed a monthly set rate(if you ISP sets a rate) or exceed the capacities of a Hi-Cap circuit and have a auto-activating fall-over to a higher grade circuit.