quesiton on caliber

[ToeCutter]

I'm a new guy here. Sorry if this subject matter is old hat. I have an infantry background & experience as a combat leader in iraq.

Admission: have always been better with tactics (employment, deployment,maneuver) then technical aspects.

I never owned a rifle as a civilian. Experience in iraq has convinced me ofthe need for every free citizen to own a robust-dependable weapon. I'mbuying an oh-sh*t society is collapsing weapon, probably an AKM variant (orGalil), because I wasn't impressed with the performance or killing power ofthe M4 in iraq (b4 u ask: I kept mine clean)....I had my SDM's carry theirM14's instead of their M4's whenever possible)

Question: what are the general opinions regarding the soviet m43 7.62x39mmversus nato 7.62 x 51? I'm interested in whatever anyone has to say with regard to lethality under300m and cost for a civilian shooter...(I'm good [routinely qual expert] with the M16/, M4 etc, but will have to devotesome time to mastery of new weapon, so cost is a factor)

Will appreciate any informed opinions.

[rwilson452]

I'm old school 20 years with uncle's navy started out on the M1 Garand moved to the M14 and fell in love. The down side as you should know to the M14/M1A is weight. but it shoot straighter and hits harder than the warsaw pact stuff. You might also not that the AK series is very reliable. Then there is cost.

I'm a new guy here. Sorry if this subject matter is old hat. I have an infantry background & experience as a combat leader in iraq.

Admission: have always been better with tactics (employment, deployment,maneuver) then technical aspects.

I never owned a rifle as a civilian. Experience in iraq has convinced me ofthe need for every free citizen to own a robust-dependable weapon. I'mbuying an oh-sh*t society is collapsing weapon, probably an AKM variant (orGalil), because I wasn't impressed with the performance or killing power ofthe M4 in iraq (b4 u ask: I kept mine clean)....I had my SDM's carry theirM14's instead of their M4's whenever possible)

Question: what are the general opinions regarding the soviet m43 7.62x39mmversus nato 7.62 x 51? I'm interested in whatever anyone has to say with regard to lethality under300m and cost for a civilian shooter...(I'm good [routinely qual expert] with the M16/, M4 etc, but will have to devotesome time to mastery of new weapon, so cost is a factor)

Will appreciate any informed opinions.

[Brick]

7.62X39 in AK variants is basically a 300 meter rifle with maybe a 500 meter maximum effective range. 7.62 NATO/M14/M1A is a 750 meter maximum effective range and if you need area fire you're good out to one click.

[BearTitan]

Wolf .308 goes about $7.75/box. Wolf 7.62x39 goes about $4.29/box. FWIW, to practice regularly, the M1A will cost alot more than the AK. Having said that, I have found it much easier to shoot an M1A variant accurately than an AK.

Be safe....buy both!

[rwilson452]

Thanks for pointing that out. I reload all the center fire I shoot. I get out of touch with store bought ammo prices.

Wolf .308 goes about $7.75/box. Wolf 7.62x39 goes about $4.29/box. FWIW, to practice regularly, the M1A will cost alot more than the AK. Having said that, I have found it much easier to shoot an M1A variant accurately than an AK.

Be safe....buy both!

[Jared McLaughlin]

Got a raised eyebrow on this one... combat infantry leadership experience with little knowledge of current issue infantry weapons on both ours and OPFOR's side? I'm guessing you were an officer. That's ok, because I was an NCO and I'm here to help.

AK's are simple, but not as effective. They'll be more comfortable for someone used to a modern infantry rifle like the M4/M16 series, in my opinion. The huge, awkward safety is one of the few downsides in my opinion. Ammo is cheaper, and that's a huge bonus. The weapon itself is cheaper. I've seen some going for $350, in the easier to acquire semi-automatic version. Seems to me there's alot of add-on toys for them if you're into that stuff.

M14 style, good rifle. Of course, you know that because you had your guys carry them. They are darned heavy, though. And the ammo is more expensive. They will reach out and touch someone a little further, though. If we're talking SHTF, I'd say no-go. Why? Too resource intensive if you ever need to handload with limited amounts of powder. Also, how many engagements really happen outside of 300m? Consider the rifle costs... I think well over a grand.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go with an AK clone, not because it's the best rifle, but sounds like the best-fit solution for your needs, of the two. Quite honestly, if you already know the M4/M16 platform, why not get one of those? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a plane jane rifle can be had in the $500-800 range, there are tons of accesssories available, and the ammo is relatively cheap. Plus you are also good with it. Remember that good hits with small calibers count more than misses with major calibers.

[rwilson452]

I just thought I would add. I don't own an M1A type but I do own a Bushmaster flat top. the big reason was about $500. If I have the urge to really reach out and touch I have a couple of heavy barreled varmint rifles. Well below 1 MOA accuracy and I know their ballistics. A man sized target a 800 yards is not a big problem. f things fall apart I'm running but not far as I'm already quite a distance from any large urban areas. where I'll be I don't expect anyone to stumble on by accident. If they know the area they are likely part of a local family or known to them. Reloading equipment is already on site so I would just need to take components and ammo on hand. yes it would be a static defence

[ToeCutter]

Ouch! Jared seriously, I didn't say I knew nothing about about friendly vs. enemy weapons...just looking to drill down a bit. (that's me being defensive).

Anyway, with regard to hitting stuff with small caliber vs. misses with higher caliber, good point. My only issue there is based on personal observations, which is why I'm leaning toward 7.62. I've seen folks return fire after hits by 5.56 (not always, but enough) while I can't ever remember the same after a center mass hit by 7.62 with no body armor. Again...no science there, just observations.

As for that Wolf ammo, is that corrosive? If so, if you clean your weapon right after the range, does it make any difference if it is?

[Lucas]

All the Wolf ammo that I've shot has been non corrosive. You'll mainly run into corrosive ammo when buying surplus.
But, with a proper cleaning after firing, I doubt you'd ever notice the difference between the two.

Let it sit for a couple days/weeks/months after shooting corrosive ammo, and you'll wish you had cleaned it after firing.

[JIMMYC308]

Have you considered an AR type weapon in 7.62x39 or 7.62x51? I like the DPMS AP4 carbine.