A few questions about AR pistols in PA and LTCF

[jsaranczak]

Hello everyone,

I have a couple of questions about an AR pistol I have...

As a pistol, I understand the average AR pistol is covered by my PA LTCF. However I'm unsure about the 26" rule regarding pistols in PA.
Are pistols over 26" still considered firearms and covered under my LTCF?
Does adding a vertical grip to said pistol over 26" change anything, or would that still be covered under my LTCF?

Thanks for the clarification in advance!

[Royinmontco]

Verical foregrip is verboten without aow tax stamp. Not sure about the length issue, though.

[USMC3531]

you may attach a vfg to a firearm 26"+ in length (if you are including muzzle brake/flash hider it must be permanently attached) if you conceal said firearm it becomes an AOW. I wouldn't recommend it though just too much potential for harassment. be safe and CYA

[Royinmontco]

How does concealment or not affect AOW status? It's either an AOW or its not, no?

[USMC3531]

no its like the "arm braces" use it how they say and its legal, shoulder it and its an sbr. the definition contains "readily concealed" but 26"+ isnt considered "readily concealable" unless you conceal it.


Any other weapon
The Serbu Super-Shorty pump-action shotgun, manufactured without a buttstock, is an AOW smooth-bore handgun, not an SBS.
A disguised firearm such as this cell phone gun is an AOW.

"Any other weapon" is a "catch-all" category. An AOW as defined as "any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive," other than a handgun with a rifled barrel.[3] This umbrella definition includes many improvised firearms ("zip guns") and disguised firearms. Examples include wallet guns, cane guns, knife guns and pen guns.[20] An AOW can be transferred to non-prohibited persons with a $5 BATF stamp as opposed to the $200 stamp required for machine guns and short barreled rifles.

AOW is a complex and often misunderstood category of NFA firearms. Less obvious examples of AOW devices include:

Short-barreled shotguns manufactured without a shoulder stock (less than or equal to 26" overall length)
They are smooth-bore handguns which fire shot shells, not shotguns, which must be designed to be fired from the shoulder.
Pistols with a second vertical grip
Many pistols feature a rail below the barrel, commonly used to mount a laser or flashlight. Attaching a vertical grip to this rail constitutes the manufacturing of an AOW firearm, as it is "no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."[21] It is therefore illegal to place an aftermarket vertical foregrip on any pistol without first registering it as an AOW and paying the $200 "making and registering tax". Failure to do so is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.[21] However if the receiver was originally manufactured to accept either a long or short barrel and a removal buttstock and fore grip and it can be assembled either as a rifle or a pistol, according to ATF rule 2011-4 it is not considered an NFA weapon as long as it is only assembled as a pistol without a buttstock or as a rifle with a barrel at least 16 inches long.[22] A vertical foregrip MAY be added to a pistol as long as the Overall Length (OAL) is greater than 26", regardless of barrel length, and providing the weapon remains unconcealed.[23] An AR-15 pistol with an overall length of 26" or longer may have a vertical foregrip installed, as long as no buttstock is installed in conjunction with a shorter than 16" barrel. The Sig Sauer Pistol Brace (SBS and SBX) are commonly found on these AR-15 style pistols with vertical foregrips since they are not considered buttstocks. The ATF does not consider a weapon in this configuration to be an AOW, but instead classifies it as a 'Firearm' which does not require any tax stamp or additional registration.
Firearms having combination rifle and shotgun barrels, more than 12 inches but less than 18 inches long from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading

[Royinmontco]

no its like the "arm braces" use it how they say and its legal, shoulder it and its an sbr. the definition contains "readily concealed" but 26"+ isnt considered "readily concealable" unless you conceal it.

That's my point. Something is either "readily concealable" or it isn't. Simply concealing something doesn't make it "readily concealable", otherwise any carbine would be considered an AOW if stuffed in a trench coat (which is easy to do). The sig brace example is a bad one, I think, because many are arguing that batfe is re-writing laws with their dubious definition of "re-design".

[Royinmontco]

Double post

[USMC3531]

That's my point. Something is either "readily concealable" or it isn't. Simply concealing something doesn't make it "readily concealable", otherwise any carbine would be considered an AOW if stuffed in a trench coat (which is easy to do). The sig brace example is a bad one, I think, because many are arguing that batfe is re-writing laws with their dubious definition of "re-design".

see the problem is you are trying to use common sense. common sense does not apply here, they write the regulations you either follow them or don't. I posted the definition and it clearly states ".[22] A vertical foregrip MAY be added to a pistol as long as the Overall Length (OAL) is greater than 26", regardless of barrel length, and providing the weapon remains unconcealed."

[Royinmontco]

Ha! Fair enough.

[ungawa]

Roy, I don't claim to understand it, but ATF did say something about intent forming AOWs (just like intent and the arm brace SBR) several months ago. I have no interest (other than disgust) so I don't know the details. But you could look into it if interested.