FAL Rifles?

[MMH]

Anyone know anything about these? Atlantic Firearms is selling these for $919. What about the DSA STG58STD which is $1039. Seems like a good price but wondering if these are good rifles? How would either one it compare to a PTR 91 (more expensive @ $1100)? I guess there are two questions here: FAL vs. G3 & Imbel & DSA vs. PTR?

[inrem]

The DSA is the obvious pick if you can actually get the prices you posted. You seem to have access to a very decent price on a DSA but a poor price on a PTR91 (CDNNinvestments has them listed for $965 with standard stock). Go to http://www.falfiles.com/forums - your questions have come up more than once.


DSA = combo of Austrian and US parts (the US parts for 922 compliance and the fact that they ran out of certain stuff, like Austrian barrels, some time ago). Generally a good-to-go rifle out of the box (after you lube it of course).

Atlantic = combo of Imbel (Brazilian) and US parts (the receiver is by Entreprise - apparently their receivers are more uniformly good than they used to be and the average current generation Entreprise receiver is about as good as the average DSA or factory Imbel receiver- see http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...agefalent3.htm ). FYI - buying something from Entreprise is NOT like taking a crap shoot with a Century manufactured (vs mearly imported product).

Austrian parts, all things being equal, tend to be slightly more refined than Brazilian (which are still quite good and were also built under license from FN). Of course, in both cases, the use or non-use of the donor "kit" used by DSA or Entreprise to build the rifle is an unknown.

Mag changes will be a bit slower with a PTR91 (unless you install a "BATF compliant" paddle release) than a FAL. The formal "mag release" button on a G3 was intended more of a back-up, but the BATF thought that having things the way they should be would make a G3 type too easy to covert to full auto.

Recoil on a G3 will be more than a FAL (at least when the bolt gap wears too much - which can be fixed with spare + size rollers - with good bolt gap it will be in the same range). A G3 does not have a gas valve to set (very simple), but if your ammo has tar or something similar sealing the bullet to the case, the flutes in the chamber of a G3 type can "gunk up".

G3 mags are currently several times cheaper than FAL mags (Aluminum G3 mags are about $2 http://www.robertrtg.com/g3magazines.html, Post-Obama election FAL mags are closer to $10).

If I had neither (rather than both types) and was only going to buy one, I would do the DSA unless the PTR91 was at least a couple hundred dollars cheaper. DSA vs. Entreprise would be a cost/wait time analysis (unless your dealer has DSA's in stock, factory wait time was often several months, even before the "Obama factor"). For only $100 difference between an Entreprise and DSA FAL, I woud do the DSA.

[Fr0sty]

The DSA is the obvious pick if you can actually get the prices you posted. You seem to have access to a very decent price on a DSA but a poor price on a PTR91 (CDNNinvestments has them listed for $965 with standard stock). Go to http://www.falfiles.com/forums - your questions have come up more than once.


DSA = combo of Austrian and US parts (the US parts for 922 compliance and the fact that they ran out of certain stuff, like Austrian barrels, some time ago). Generally a good-to-go rifle out of the box (after you lube it of course).

Atlantic = combo of Imbel (Brazilian) and US parts (the receiver is by Entreprise - apparently their receivers are more uniformly good than they used to be and the average current generation Entreprise receiver is about as good as the average DSA or factory Imbel receiver- see http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...agefalent3.htm ). FYI - buying something from Entreprise is NOT like taking a crap shoot with a Century manufactured (vs mearly imported product).

Austrian parts, all things being equal, tend to be slightly more refined than Brazilian (which are still quite good and were also built under license from FN). Of course, in both cases, the use or non-use of the donor "kit" used by DSA or Entreprise to build the rifle is an unknown.

Mag changes will be a bit slower with a PTR91 (unless you install a "BATF compliant" paddle release) than a FAL. The formal "mag release" button on a G3 was intended more of a back-up, but the BATF thought that having things the way they should be would make a G3 type too easy to covert to full auto.

Recoil on a G3 will be more than a FAL (at least when the bolt gap wears too much - which can be fixed with spare + size rollers - with good bolt gap it will be in the same range). A G3 does not have a gas valve to set (very simple), but if your ammo has tar or something similar sealing the bullet to the case, the flutes in the chamber of a G3 type can "gunk up".

G3 mags are currently several times cheaper than FAL mags (Aluminum G3 mags are about $2 http://www.robertrtg.com/g3magazines.html, Post-Obama election FAL mags are closer to $10).

If I had neither (rather than both types) and was only going to buy one, I would do the DSA unless the PTR91 was at least a couple hundred dollars cheaper. DSA vs. Entreprise would be a cost/wait time analysis (unless your dealer has DSA's in stock, factory wait time was often several months, even before the "Obama factor"). For only $100 difference between an Entreprise and DSA FAL, I woud do the DSA.

Excellent reply! You pretty much laid it all out.

I wanted to add that my latest FAL is built on an Enterprise recv and I have been very happy with it. No issues, everything is proper spec, etc.. FALs are great rifles, and are easy to work with. They are not tack drivers, but can get pretty damn accurate. The only downside is, getting a FAL to a very accurate state can cost some money. Just keep in mind the intent of the rifle design and you should be in love. My latest FAL shoots very well out to 300m so far, and sometime in Jan I will be taking it out to 600m. Open sight, scoped, whatever, its just great to shoot.

I have all sorts of videos of my FAL on D33z.net under the video section

[DaveM55]

I have a DS Arms SA-58 carbine and I love it. It is heavy and expensive to shoot anymore. Ammo for this thing has tripled in the last two years and surplus is hard to find. I used to pay $20 for 140 round South African battle packs, now it's upwards of $75 or more when it's even available. Glad I have a bunch stashed away.

It's not the most accurate rifle mostly because the sights (rear) aren't that great. But I can hit center of bad guy all day at 100-200-300 yards. Never had it on a range farther than that. It's not a .5 MOA shooter, but more of a battle rifle. You won't see this rifle at Camp Perry.

You can get a rail mount like I have and put an optic on it.

There are also after market rear sights that are better than the standard.

All in all it is a great shooter and for plinking it's fine. I wouldn't want to carry it and a full ammo load for very long though.

The DS Arms STG-58 is built from a parts kit on a new DS Arms receiver. An SA-58 is all new parts and receiver.

[Asmodeus6]

Para's VS standard stocks?

21" vs shorter barrels?

Thoughts?
(FALs)

[ROCK-IT3]

The DSA is the obvious pick if you can actually get the prices you posted. You seem to have access to a very decent price on a DSA but a poor price on a PTR91 (CDNNinvestments has them listed for $965 with standard stock).

Have any of you done business with this CDNN? Is that price for the public, or for dealers? I see most new PTR-91's in the $1200-1300 range (for the F model). Is CDNN for real?

[gf45acp]

Always wanted one, never got it, now no $$. Do the right thing, get both!

[inrem]

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ is not that small an outfit. While I have never ordered a gun from them, I have ordered many hundred of dollars in mags, scopes, etc. over the years. Only once was something not right, and they made it right (shipped a replacement).

I do know they are happy to ship to FFL's (find one local who will take shipment or look at the ones who are willing to do so on the Gunbroker list). If you order anything, you will get on their print catalogue list. Their on-line cataloge takes a while to download from their web site (has many goodies). They do a lot of volume stuff, dealer liquidations, police trade-ins, etc. PTR's have been in every catalogue I have been sent for years.

The only question is are they still in stock (as their catalogue is in print and their on-line one is a duplicate of the print version).

FYI - after the "ban" expired in 2004, they blew out the "ban compliant" PTRs with no flash hider, etc. far cheaper than $965 (what they list the "F" and "KF" models for now) - I think low $700 range.

[inrem]

If you try out both a quality G3 and a quality FAL:

-G3 is a tad shorter, plus everyone gets a spare collapsing stock (i.e. from Dan's - http://www.dansammo.com/odds.asp for $159 shipped), even if they don't intend to use the "meat tenderizer" too often.
-G3 has charging handle in an awkward place
-G3 (at least without an upgrade) would be hard to change mags if you needed gloves
-G3 damages brass (a port buffer may help significantly)
-G3 throws brass harder (brokern windows could be an extra problem if if you ever had to fire from inside a moving vehicle in a post SHTF situation)
-If you know what sealant your ammo uses, in truly adverse conditions, a G3 MAY be more reliable than a FAL with a regular gas setting (of course, with an FAL, you can close off the gas bleed-off 100% which would result in extra recoil and wear on parts, but an increase in fuctioning in Katrina type muck and stuff).
-FAL has less stuff that could wear/break
-FAL super easy to take apart, clean, and reassemble (G3 is not bad, unless you want to remove the bolt from the carrier to clean and the damn thing does not want to budge). With the FAL, even grade school kid could figure out by himself how to take out/reinstall the full trigger group if he wanted to do more than field strip.
-FAL with an 18" barrel and a para stock is longer than a para G3. However, the FAL with folded stock is still only about 30" - less than a 16" AR. FYI - a FAL para stock is not uncomfortable and very usable.
-FAL and G3 have similar quality iron sights. Both could use an upgrade. Optional upgrades to both do exist, but may of may not be worth the money.
-If an FAL headspaces and works right, it is good to go for many thousands of rounds. With a G3 you have to hope that the builder did not hold the welding torch too long, making the metal a bit softer in certain places than it should be (possibility of acelerated wear). Also, you will have to check the bolt gap/rollers more often than you would check anything in a FAL.

In a SHTF situation, IMHO, either rifle would likely function very well for thousands of rounds without real problems. If I was without an FAL, I would grab a G3 without reservation and be confident that the rifle would last far longer than I would likely survive (the FAL would last longer, but what the hey).

[NineseveN]

Para's VS standard stocks?

21" vs shorter barrels?

Thoughts?
(FALs)

Para stocks aren't generally comfortable for most folks (though some really love them), it's a "use it if you really need it" item IMHO. They look cool, but the cheek weld is rough for most people on them, go with a hump-back type stock (little hump at the top of the but), they're generally going to be the most comfortable.

For .308, 18" is the optimum barrel length given standard milsurp or similar ammo. If you hand load and get a little heavy with the bullet or use slow-burning powders, the extra velocity and time in barrel for powder burn may help, but not all that much.

These guys (Tac-Ops) make pretty much the most repeatably accurate rifles on the planet, and they did some work on the question, ending up with 18"-20" being optimal, with 18" being preferred on their rifles: http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

So I'd recommend an 18" barrel with a good flash suppressor mounted (one that effectively disperses or reduces the flash signature) for accuracy, maneuverability and balance on a .308 auto-loading rifle like a FAL/G3/CETME/M14, and a 20" on a bolt gun for versatility's sake.