Carrying on school property OC/CC

[t1m0thy]

I have been reading through this forum and other resources about carrying on school property and I can find no legal standing to support prohibiting me from carrying onto school property with a LTCF. This is a concern for me as I carry everywhere I go for self-defense and my kids are quickly approaching school age. It seems to me the law says one thing but LEO and school officials do another. I don't want to get arrested and have to go through the mess of a court case but yet the law defends my right to carry onto school property. It appears to me I faced with the decision to obey the law yet risk arrest in the process. How fucked up is that? I have two kids about ready to attend school and I will soon be unable to avoid school property, but yet I do not wish to give up my right to carry for self defense. Anyone out there in the same position?

[PA Traveler]

... I don't want to get arrested and have to go through the mess of a court case but yet the law defends my right to carry onto school property...

I'm sure you think the law is on your side... but from very recent conversations with attorneys I've learned that they read the law quite differently.

The police on the other hand, are more than apt to say "I'll make the arrest... let them sort it out in court."

The last time I said to one lawyer pal "I read it very clearly... yada, yada" He said "You think? You got $50 grand to bet that you're right? If you're willing to be the test case, let's go! I'd love to litigate that one!!"

He's not digging for business. He's a gun owner and daily concealed carrier making the point to me that he's made many times before.

His bottom line is that insisting upon your rights is often a difficult, time consuming and expensive process. The folks you'll be arguing with may be dead wrong. They may even know they are wrong! But they are in a position to argue (and may even get paid for it!); you may or may not be. Just be aware of what you may be stepping into and make your choice realistically.

My .02 based on a conversation from yesterday.

"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts; if the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound on the table!

[marinville]

18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.
(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.
(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

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[H.E. Pennypacker]

Does the law apply when school is 'out'? (i.e. after hours or during summer recess?)

[arks]

Anyone out there in the same position?

Yup- until 2006 when my kid finished 12th grade.
I will say 2 things:
-'deep concealment' can be your friend and
-TELL NO ONE.

[t1m0thy]

To me it is a simple matter that needs no further look than to the above statute. When I went to the Cambria County Sherriff's office they issued me a LTCF based solely on the basis of "self-defense". Therefore, by state mandate I am authorized to carry for that purpose. That is a "lawful purpose". There is no gray area for interpretation; that is what the law states plain and simple. The fact that I would be forced to defend that in court is appalling and disturbing at the very least. I have a mind to write the Attorney general for a response to such a question if they would even respond. I have heard the term legislating from the bench but this is legislating from the badge. Police and other officials should not be permitted to use the power and force of their office to intimidate the citizenry into compliance with a policy that has no basis in the law under the guise of protecting children from an imaginary enemy. Behavior such us this undermines the rule of law and places men above their appointed office as dictators instead of the protectors they have sworn an oath to be.

[zackattack784]

If you insist on carrying on school property and you don't want to be a "test case," conceal conceal conceal conceal.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

To me it is a simple matter that needs no further look than to the above statute. When I went to the Cambria County Sherriff's office they issued me a LTCF based solely on the basis of "self-defense". Therefore, by state mandate I am authorized to carry for that purpose. That is a "lawful purpose". There is no gray area for interpretation; that is what the law states plain and simple. The fact that I would be forced to defend that in court is appalling and disturbing at the very least. I have a mind to write the Attorney general for a response to such a question if they would even respond. I have heard the term legislating from the bench but this is legislating from the badge. Police and other officials should not be permitted to use the power and force of their office to intimidate the citizenry into compliance with a policy that has no basis in the law under the guise of protecting children from an imaginary enemy. Behavior such us this undermines the rule of law and places men above their appointed office as dictators instead of the protectors they have sworn an oath to be.

...or is possessed for other lawful purpose

Seems like those three words leave a lot of room for interpretation. As you said, 'self defense' is '[an]other lawful purpose'. Would it be a good legal defense if caught...who knows?

[uniballin]

is possessed for other lawful purpose
The law is pretty clear to me... but yea, I can see how it's a gray area.

[headcase]

Anyone who carries regularly for self defense, and has business in a school, is in the same boat. You are forced to choose between giving up tools that help you defend yourself while there and taking the chance of going to jail.

Understand that quite a few people who carry, read the defense in the statute to say that self defense is a lawful pupose. On the other hand, most people who don't carry, and quite a few who do, read the defense in the statute to say that common sense dictates that lawful purpose only applies to LEOs or official security. The general reality is that neither side wants this issue decided in court for fear that it will be decided against them.

In an effort to give a sense of how it may be handled, I will tell you my experience. I carried openly to my son's Little League games last year. They were held on school property a few times. I had the police called on me by one jerk, three times. In the first encounter, I had one professional officer and one extreme asshole. The asshole and I, engaged in a heated argument over the law, and the professional officer knowing that they only had the idea that what I was doing was illegal and no actual understanding of the statute, went to great lengths to get direction from what seemed like every LE office in the state. In the end, according to the local ADA, OC on school grounds was too much to not take to court, but CC with a LTCF was OK. In addition, being found with a firearm in a school building, LTCF or not, would get you arrested and you get to become the test case. I was told if I covered up, I could walk, and if I didn't, I would be arrested. In the end, I covered..... Please understand that this was my direct experience with my local LE, and is in no way intended to be applied to the entire Commonwealth, and is only presented to give an idea of what one may expect in relation to how this law is applied.

In addition, I am currently doing a great deal of work for a local school district, and work very closely with their police and security director. I leave my gun in the car, although I am fairly certain at worst I would be told to put it in the car if it was noticed, I am not 100% sure, and do not want to chance the possible multiple bad consequences if I am wrong.

Do what you can live with.



ETA: The AG's office has refused to take a stand on this issue and will tell you to feel free to test your interpretation in court...