Any oil burner experts here?

[GunLawyer001]

We're on Day 4 of the local furnace repair guys trying to fix our oil burner. They are giving up.

As I understand it, we have a DynaTherm boiler and a Blue Angel burner. The burner uses a 1 gallon per minute oil nozzle. The repair guy can't get enough air in for the burner to burn 1 GPM, he's opened the air blower up all the way, and replaced the nozzle with a 0.6 GPM nozzle, and it's still burning too rich (too much oil, too little air).

His boss says says he checked with the boiler manufacturer, and that burner is "not approved for use" with this boiler. Well, it's the same burner we've had for the 10 years we've been here. He's telling us that it can't be made to function with this boiler. But it's been functioning with this boiler for years.

Right now, they have no idea why it's not working, but they want to replace the entire burner (for $1,200) and see if that works.

So, any thoughts? Any recommendations for competent burner/boiler service companies in eastern PA, near Quakertown?

[PreserveandProtect]

We're on Day 4 of the local furnace repair guys trying to fix our oil burner. They are giving up.

As I understand it, we have a DynaTherm boiler and a Blue Angel burner. The burner uses a 1 gallon per minute oil nozzle. The repair guy can't get enough air in for the burner to burn 1 GPM, he's opened the air blower up all the way, and replaced the nozzle with a 0.6 GPM nozzle, and it's still burning too rich (too much oil, too little air).

His boss says says he checked with the boiler manufacturer, and that burner is "not approved for use" with this boiler. Well, it's the same burner we've had for the 10 years we've been here. He's telling us that it can't be made to function with this boiler. But it's been functioning with this boiler for years.

Right now, they have no idea why it's not working, but they want to replace the entire burner (for $1,200) and see if that works.

So, any thoughts? Any recommendations for competent burner/boiler service companies in eastern PA, near Quakertown?

Can't say specifically about that boiler/burner, but I have worked with a number of oil fired devices- HHO, WO, BD. I am not an expert, but will try to give some info.

Is this going up a chimney or forced vent (ie power vent)?

Many burners have two air adjustments, a band and fins.

Are you using a baro damper? How close to the top of the furnace?

Why does your service man think it is too rich? Is he measuring draft, or burn color/quality/gases?

If the burn quality is bad, but the draft is okay (measured in the flue) it is possible that your pump, pump seals, line from pump to burner, etc is failing or contaminated.

If the pump can't make the pressure (ie seals) and/or the lines aren't holding it steady (leaks, clogs), the burning quality can suffer greatly as the fuel isn't properly atomized. This prevents proper mixing with air and poor combustion is one result.

Have you ever run biodiesel through it? If so, some pump seals aren't made for it (need viton or similar). Replacements aren't too much.

If the problem is the burner tripping, then think your cad eye (flame sensor). This can be made worse by the inside of the burner "tube" (where the sensor is) getting crud built up on it. Clean/polish this up, clead the cad cell, test it.

You can also burn it with a little more air to make the flame more yellow, else add a resistor inline to help it detect a darker flame, such as biodiesel or some waste oils.

Anyways, don't want to go too far until you can give some more info, such as fuels used and the specific nature of the problem. Your furnace man "says" not enough air, but what makes him think that (see the above Q's), and what is the specific symptom that prompted you to call him?

Hope this helps.

[GunLawyer001]

Thanks for the reply, I'll answer in blue below:

Can't say specifically about that boiler/burner, but I have worked with a number of oil fired devices- HHO, WO, BD. I am not an expert, but will try to give some info.

Is this going up a chimney or forced vent (ie power vent)?
2 floors worth of chimney, which we just had cleaned and an obstruction (a brick) removed on advice from the furnace guys after Day 2.

Many burners have two air adjustments, a band and fins.

Are you using a baro damper? How close to the top of the furnace?
No idea.

Why does your service man think it is too rich? Is he measuring draft, or burn color/quality/gases?
I think he's basing it on the amount of soot and unburned oil, and the fact that it improved as he added air and replaced the nozzle with a smaller size.

If the burn quality is bad, but the draft is okay (measured in the flue) it is possible that your pump, pump seals, line from pump to burner, etc is failing or contaminated.

If the pump can't make the pressure (ie seals) and/or the lines aren't holding it steady (leaks, clogs), the burning quality can suffer greatly as the fuel isn't properly atomized. This prevents proper mixing with air and poor combustion is one result.

Have you ever run biodiesel through it? If so, some pump seals aren't made for it (need viton or similar). Replacements aren't too much.
Nope, just regular deliveries from a major home fuel oil supplier.

If the problem is the burner tripping, then think your cad eye (flame sensor). This can be made worse by the inside of the burner "tube" (where the sensor is) getting crud built up on it. Clean/polish this up, clead the cad cell, test it.

You can also burn it with a little more air to make the flame more yellow, else add a resistor inline to help it detect a darker flame, such as biodiesel or some waste oils.

Anyways, don't want to go too far until you can give some more info, such as fuels used and the specific nature of the problem. Your furnace man "says" not enough air, but what makes him think that (see the above Q's), and what is the specific symptom that prompted you to call him?
We called him because the system would not burn at all, no heat at all. Started up when we hit the red button, no flame, stopped (only tried that once, I've been told about saturating the burn chamber with oil, and the risk of explosion). He cleaned the points, replaced the transformer (so we get spark now), he also cleaned a lot of soot out of the various pipes in and around the boiler.

Hope this helps.

I think he mostly played with the fuel/air ratio, but he mentioned testing the fuel pressure in and the exhaust pressure out. He had a probe in the exhaust pipe. On the other hand, there are parts left over after re-assembly, I think he called it a "baffle". Maybe that's part of opening up the air flow.

he said he cleaned the "squirrel cage" fan in the blower, I asked him to verify that it's firmly affixed to the shaft (I've seen house fans where the blades spin weakly because they just ride on the motor shaft. He says he never loosened the set screw that holds the blades to the flat of the shaft.)

My main concern is that a "repair" guy should know why a unit doesn't work before recommending that the entire unit be scrapped. I'm also not entirely sure that it will work after replacing the burner half of the system, and we'll be stuck when they tell us we have to replace the boiler half, too. If they don't know why it won't work, how can they know what the right fix is?

[tsor39]

You mention the blower.

This is taking ambient air, compressing and pushing the air through the burner. Has the blower been checked to see what the air volume is. Your would need to have a manometer or pitot tube.

You can also look at the blower impellar. Is the impellar worn at all? Check the diameter of the impellar vs the housing. If there is too much clearance, insuffient air flow.

Good luck.

[PreserveandProtect]

I think he mostly played with the fuel/air ratio, but he mentioned testing the fuel pressure in and the exhaust pressure out. He had a probe in the exhaust pipe. On the other hand, there are parts left over after re-assembly, I think he called it a "baffle". Maybe that's part of opening up the air flow.

First, he MUST REPLACE the baffle. This causes the air to swirl and properly mix with the fuel. If this is bent, damaged, or REMOVED (!) it will affect the performace of the burner.

Furthermore, if the baffle is removed, then the spacing between the nozzle and the baffle (where it should be anyways) will be off, too. The nozzle to baffle relationship (position, air pattern, etc) is important.

he said he cleaned the "squirrel cage" fan in the blower, I asked him to verify that it's firmly affixed to the shaft (I've seen house fans where the blades spin weakly because they just ride on the motor shaft. He says he never loosened the set screw that holds the blades to the flat of the shaft.)

Make sure it is firmly sealed. If he was blowing out the fan, maybe the inlets are clogged?

My main concern is that a "repair" guy should know why a unit doesn't work before recommending that the entire unit be scrapped. I'm also not entirely sure that it will work after replacing the burner half of the system, and we'll be stuck when they tell us we have to replace the boiler half, too. If they don't know why it won't work, how can they know what the right fix is?

He is onsite, I'm not. He *may* be right. He may have figured the rest of the system is shot, so no use putting it all back together. He may have found a safety issue, etc. Barring those...

If I were physically there, this is what I would be doing/checking.

1. Chimney. Why did it have a brick in it? Is it from the top or the inside? You must be absolutely CERTAIN there aren't any chimney failures or blockages. If this is an unlined chimney (no stainless steel liner "pipe" inside), any cracks or blockages can create a dangerous situation- fire, carbon monoxide buildup, lack of draft (poor burn), etc.

These can be relined with a stainless steel liner. Not cheap, but pretty much permanent. This would look like someone put a fluepipe inside the chimney. More efficient in most cases. Masonry chimneys are often too large for oil fired appliances and draft suffers. Not impossible, but creates challenges...

2. Soot and unburnt oil. You mentioned a new transformer. Yep, a poor performing transformer will allow a lot of soot and junk to build up on everything. It will likely be this way for a while after correcting the burning.

Clean all the metal parts, including the baffle. Should be clean and not sooty or crusty.

Lightly blow out the soot. Most boilers also require use of a "pipe cleaner" kind of brush to clean out the areas of the heat exchanger. Just be careful not to poke through the combustion chamber. Many are now only lined with a kind of fabric. Your boiler will smoke through the seams of the sheetmetal covering if compromised.

Correctly space electrodes in relation to the NEW nozzle. This includes both the spacing between the electrodes and the spacing between the electrodes and the nozzle itself. The electrodes should be clean and polished.

Be sure to change the element in your inline fuel filter coming from the tank. (You do have one, right)

Check for any air leaks between the pump and the burner nozzle. Also check for any fuel leaks or sucking of air on any fuel lines.

Note: You CANNOT clean a nozzle. It's a waste of time. Be sure that in addition to size, the degree/angle of the nozzle is the one spec'd by your boiler.

3. Air volume. Check the chimney as mentioned, measure draft, check input to fan, open a nearby window or door. The building could be insulated too tightly, reducing the draft, especially in a cold masonry chimney.

Same is true if the building is too drafty, especially upstairs. The building can cause a downdraft or reduce the draft in the chimney. With a liner, not usually a problem as the blower can usually overcome natural draft issues.

A new pump is not usually too much. IE- Beckett is $50-$150.

The other thing to think about is efficiency. A new furnace may be a good idea or not, but consider that, too.

Standard disclaimer- I am not a furnace professional, the info I provide is from my own knowledge and experience, consult a professional or at your own risk, etc.

Hope this helps or at least gives you some questions to ask your furnace man. He may have perfectly acceptable answers (ie- I didn't reassemble the baffle because the air tube was rotted off, etc).

Good luck, I'll keep an eye on this thread and offer any help I can.

[vetter3006]

You have gotten alot of information about burners so I will not add my two cents about them, but I will say this get a second and or third contractor out to look over your burner,tell them you need to know what it would cost to get it running efficiently ask for a qoute. it never hurts to get another opinion.

[Kendrickson]

I don't have much to offer on the repair aspect, but if you find that the whole unit must be replaced you may want to check Craigslist. Lightly used boilers are often on Craigslist for little money, and you can pay a plumber to complete the installation.

[ehidle]

1GPM? Holy shit, what are you trying to do? Heat up the whole neighborhood all at once?



What is the problem with the burner? Does it fail to fire? Does it sputter? Does it blow smoke out the damper? Do you have an overhead or down-under oil feed? Did they retape all of the fittings from the filter to the pump to the burner nozzle? What have they replaced?

Is it a P-103?

eta: sorry I missed your previous post in which you answered some of these questions...

[GunLawyer001]

1GPM? Holy shit, what are you trying to do? Heat up the whole neighborhood all at once?



What is the problem with the burner? Does it fail to fire? Does it sputter? Does it blow smoke out the damper? Do you have an overhead or down-under oil feed? Did they retape all of the fittings from the filter to the pump to the burner nozzle? What have they replaced?

Is it a P-103?

eta: sorry I missed your previous post in which you answered some of these questions...

Oops, one gallon per hour, not per minute. That would be impressive, though.

The main problem for now is that he replaced the 1 GPhour nozzle with a 0.6 GPH nozzle, and it still isn't getting enough air to completely burn the oil; we have a pretty big house, I don't want to try heating it with 60% of the burner, and the problems with extra soot and inefficiency on top of that.

The oil comes from the tank, under the concrete, and then up into the burner somehow.

I believe that the only replacement parts were the transformer and the electrodes that create the spark. He removed what he called the baffle, a wheel-like thing maybe 20-25 inches across, looks like a thing you keep poker chips in (or a huge flat locking washer, it's a big rim with circular bites all around the inside edge).

[tlgpa]

Can't answer your questions as the oil furnace is one of the few things in my house I don't know enough about to fix myself.

Who's your service company? I think 4 days is too long for an "expert" to solve a problem they should understand.
We've had poor success with Farm & Home. Their techs seemed to cause more problems than they solved. We use Heavener now and they're not too bad, and seem to have the best rates.