Stripped lowers

[homedefender]

I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I shipped a stripped lower to a LGS for transfer and he insisted that if I was considering making a pistol it had to be transferd as a pistol. Well needless to say after a few minutes of going around and around, him saying (rifle or pistol) and me saying (other) I gave in and did it as a pistol and left. The best part he stated he could transfer it as a rifle and if I changed my mind I could come back and switch it to a pistol.


Thanks to this forum I know this is incorrect but thru my searching I could not find any official ruling or link that I could send to him to bring him up to date. Any help would be appreciated

[All_Thumbs]

I appreciate your ordeal. In that situation, I think I would've asked him to give some examples of transfers for which he would check the "other firearm" checkbox.

[West Chester]

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downl...f-f-4473-1.pdf

Question 18. Type of Firearm(s):
Check all boxes that apply. "other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can be made only into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or a long gun. However, they still are "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle", it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age or 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

[Gun]

If a lower left the manufacturers as a stripped lower, never been attached to a barreled upper (with stock), it is known as OTHER on a 4473. The FFL is wrong to think otherwise.

Also, if the lower was designated as rifle on the 4473, it cannot be changed, nor made into a pistol without a tax stamp from the ATF. Don't bother correcting this FFL, find another one who does it correctly.

Having the lower designated as PISTOL on the 4473 , though incorrect, is better than a RIFLE designation, then you can go pistol to rifle to pistol to rifle to ...

[All_Thumbs]

Yes, the "instructions" for question #18 seem deliberately uninformative and useless.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downl...f-f-4473-1.pdf

Question 18. Type of Firearm(s):
Check all boxes that apply. "other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

If a frame or receiver can be made only into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or a long gun. However, they still are "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle", it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age or 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip firearms, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(a).

[homedefender]

Having the lower designated as PISTOL on the 4473 , though incorrect, is better than a RIFLE designation, then you can go pistol to rifle to pistol to rifle to ...

This is what I was thinking. This lower is going to be a sbr so ill probably build it into a pistol before the stamp comes

[homedefender]

So I sent the owner a email highlighting the instructions for question 18 along with this link http://www.examiner.com/article/penn...tration-scheme. And urged him to speak with the atf/PSP or another FFL And he replies with

"If you can get an ATF agent to revoke what they told me (the owner) then I will change how I do them. I was told directly from my ATF agents that inspect my shop that if you ever intend to make the receiver a pistol it must be done that way from the original sale of the receiver. I do not really care which way they are done but since I was told that directly from the ATF then that is how I am going to do them. I do not claim to know which way is 100% correct."

So I guess that's the first and last time I use his shop

[Xringshooter]

Yes, the "instructions" for question #18 seem deliberately uninformative and useless.

If you don't deal with this day to day, then they very well may seem uninformative. However, when you deal with this a lot, especially if you are a FFL or build a lot of AR platform guns, and take it in context with the other laws, it is really quite clear what is being said.

I'm and FFL and I (and many, many PA FFLs) went through this when the PSP was trying to make FFL's fill out a PSP Form SP4-113 which is only used for handguns (under a certain barrel length), short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns). The vast majority of FFL's in PA fought this tooth and nail and when the PSP took it to the BATFE, they got their head handed to them. The PSP then had to rescind their "ruling" and published that in the newsletter that is sent to all FFLs.

You will actually find FFLs that will still insist that a SP4-113 must be filled out for a virgin receiver and the 4473 marked handgun. They are WRONG. If they try that on you tell them to contact the PSP Firearms Unit (they will have the number) and they will find out they are wrong in no uncertain terms. The PSP was burnt pretty badly on this one.

[snuffy19608]

So I sent the owner a email highlighting the instructions for question 18 along with this link http://www.examiner.com/article/penn...tration-scheme. And urged him to speak with the atf/PSP or another FFL And he replies with

"If you can get an ATF agent to revoke what they told me (the owner) then I will change how I do them. I was told directly from my ATF agents that inspect my shop that if you ever intend to make the receiver a pistol it must be done that way from the original sale of the receiver. I do not really care which way they are done but since I was told that directly from the ATF then that is how I am going to do them. I do not claim to know which way is 100% correct."

So I guess that's the first and last time I use his shop

This place wouldn't be just down the road from an archery place that happens to be the LGS's former name would it?

[All_Thumbs]

The "instructions" seem to unnecessarily go beyond stating simple unambiguous rules. They dabble in some kind of specious "reasoning" that seems unnecessarily confusing and opens the door for problems like what the OP described. For example:

"If a frame or receiver can be made only into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or a long gun."

What about the case where the frame can be made into either a rifle or a pistol? Then what? Going further, as a practical matter, since any "rifle" can be made into a pistol (using a hack saw, for example), there's actually no such thing as a frame or receiver that can "*only* be made into a long gun".

If I was drafting the instructions, I would simply say something like:

Rifle - a firearm with a minimum barrel length of 16";
Handgun - a firearm with a barrel length of less than 16" which has no shoulder stock;
Other - the serial numbered frame or receiver of a firearm (no distinction is made between rifle and handgun).