What would you have done?

**matty70** · August 9th, 2009, 07:51 PM

What would you have done? Considering you are witnessing this but you, yourself, are not being attacked, LEOs are nowhere in the area and seconds count. I wonder if the patrol LEOs were held back from responding due to the magnitude of the attack while a riot team was being mustered and dispatched. How was the fight finally broken up? When did LEOs get there? More than 30 people fighting and only 3 got arrested? Lots of missing info here...
Not blaming Philly LEOs I'm sure they were responding as soon as they got the call but I don't understand why they weren't called as soon as the fight broke out in the bar? I used to bounce down the shore and at the first verbal confrontation the cops were called as we "esorted" those involved out of the bar that way if it carried into the street the cops were already on the way.

http://cbs3.com/local/fight.assault....2.1101364.html
Jul 28, 2009 7:58 am US/Eastern
3 Face Charges In Deadly Ball Park Beating
PHILADELPHIA (CBS 3) ―
Philadelphia Police have charged three suspects in connection with a deadly fight outside Citizens Bank Park over the weekend.

Authorities said Charles Bowers, 35, James Groves, 45, and Francis Kirchner, 28, have been charged with murder in the deadly beating of 22-year-old Lansdale resident David Sale Saturday evening.

The three suspects were apparently part of a group from Fishtown that became involved in an altercation with Sale, who was celebrating with a bachelor's party at McFadden's bar near the end of Saturday's Phillies/Cardinals game. The fight allegedly started over a spilled beer.

The group was quickly kicked out of the establishment and the fight spilled into parking lot 'M'.

Investigators said the fight in the parking lot quickly escalated and became brutal.

"One of the individuals was holding him in a headlock while the other two were beating him," Captain James Clark explained. He went down to the ground, on all fours, and then they started kicking him and stomping him until he went unconscious. And even after that, we have information they continued to kick and stomp him."

Sale was pronounced dead at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania at about 8 p.m.

Bowers and Grooves were arrested in South Philadelphia on Saturday evening. They were both arraigned Monday morning and they are being held without bail. Kirchner surrendered to authorities Monday afternoon. Investigators said all three suspects have prior criminal records.

Michael R. Stiles, Phillies Senior Vice President for Administration and Operations, issued a statement saying:

"The Phillies want to express heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of David Sale. We also want to express our appreciation to the Philadelphia Police Department for their efforts in this matter. We trust in the justice system and have confidence that the persons responsible for this tragic loss of life will be held accountable. In light of the fact that there are open homicide charges, we do not intend to make any further comments."

The deadly incident remains under police investigation.

**evilash** · August 9th, 2009, 08:19 PM

While I would feel bad for the guy getting beat, I do not feel safe enough were I could draw...fire into a crowd, without innocent harm or being fired back upon. And I only carry 24... I could easily be killed by the mob also if I chose to draw.

But legally it is within your rights to draw in this situation.

**ungawa** · August 9th, 2009, 08:27 PM

I guess when you see a fight you don't know the outcome in advance.

This is why I do not fight.

**JDC** · August 9th, 2009, 08:31 PM

There was also a 30 year old man walking by who got attacked by the mob and ended up in the hospital. I'm curious what you would do if you were that guy getting attacked by 30 people. Do you draw? Try to run? This is a tough one. Chances are drawing a gun on 30 people that are drunk isn't going to turn out well for you.

**cadence2arms** · August 9th, 2009, 08:38 PM

They killed that guy. Bottom line its a call you have to make. You don't know at the time he is gonna die, most likely you would get charged with something. Just like trying to break up a fight and get accused of being involved. That happened to me before. This justice system is so screwed up that a citizen can't even do a good deed anymore. Unless it is a helpless old lady or a woman with a child your seen as an accomplice and told you should have called the police.

**General Geoff** · August 9th, 2009, 08:55 PM

This is a tough one. Chances are drawing a gun on 30 people that are drunk isn't going to turn out well for you.

Most mobs are very cowardly. Drawing a gun would very likely have dispursed the crowd.

**JDC** · August 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by General Geoff

Most mobs are very cowardly. Drawing a gun would very likely have dispursed the crowd.

I sort of agree but you have to consider these guys are already full of adrenaline and have the mob mentality going. They have already beat one guy to death chances are you pull a gun they are probably not going to all run away.

**agentw0** · August 9th, 2009, 09:22 PM

If you pop one or two of them I imagine the mob would lose it's steam. I mean there is enough there for you to reasonably believe your life is in danger. Of course I am only saying this if the mob were to try and involve me. I would attempt just to avoid the whole situation, but if they involved me I would most definitely draw, fire and deal with the aftermath. Better to be Judged by 12 than carried by 6.

**gooseSA40** · August 9th, 2009, 09:32 PM

I think there are a too many factors and the news story provides limited information...

factors like: what is the distance between you and the incident? Are you with your family/wife/gf/partner? Is your family/wife/gf scared? And finally....Do you have a great lawyer if you do help in that type of situation?

Maybe try to video tape it to help the slow LEOs??

**ehidle** · August 9th, 2009, 09:34 PM

I would not have done anything, because I would not have been there in the first place. Philly is a rotting, steaming cesspool of criminal thuggery, and nothing good could possibly come out of going there.

That said, for sake of argument, I still would have done nothing, because while I would have known it was well within my rights to come to the aid of Mr. Sale, I would have been outnumbered 3 to 1, and possibly 50 or 100 or 300 or 2000 to 1 being the "historically over-represented, non-disabled Person of the United States having descended from European roots," who opened fire in downtown Philly.

People hear gunfire and turn to look, they assume the bad guy is the one with the gun - PERIOD.