My meeting with Luzerne County Sheriff Savokinas (8/22/08)

[Pa. Patriot]

Yesterday I met with Sheriff Savokinas.


As a result of this thread:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...on-page-2.html
Specifically post#26 and #28

Basically, I had some concerns, questions and suggestions for the
sheriff in regards to the new (and old) LTCF application process.

So we made an appointment for 10AM Friday 8/22/08.

I parked in the county parking garage and made my way up the block past
the courthouse to the sheriff's office, which is now located in the
annex building which is on the corner across the street from the courthouse.
I had been there once since they moved from the courthouse but it was during my day job lunch break and I am not able to carry in the company vehicle, so I was unable to "test" the new security checkpoint in regards to checking firearms.
I have checked my firearm several times at the courthouse itself, with only one time having any kind of issue. The guard on duty tried to tell me they advised non-LEO to leave firearms in their vehicles. To which I objected and reminded him that Title 18, subsection 912 mandated the lockers were for all people legally carrying, not just LEO.

Anyway, so yesterday I was OC'ing also, as usual (when not at work), and met the security guard at the entrance to the sheriff's entrance and informed him first thing that I needed to check my sidearm.
Security: "Are you an officer?"
Me: "No, sir, I am not in law enforcement".
Security: "Why do you carry a firearm like that?"
Me: (with a smile) "I carry a firearm every day."
Security: "Ok, you'll need to secure it in the locker over there." Pointing to the stack of 3 lockers atop the x-ray belt.
Me: "Thanks", ...I then made my way to the side f the vestibule where the lockers were.
Security: "Top one is empty..."
I carefully, deliberately and safely unholstered from my SERPA holster while facing the locker and placed G23 slowly and directly in lockbox.
Me: I also just realized I also have my pocket knives, can I place them in the locker also?"
Security: "Sure."
Me: (placing knifes inside along, "Ok, and I take the key, correct?"
Security: "Yes."
I emptied my pockets and went through the detector, setting it off as usual. He wanded me and found the usual suspects, my belt buckle, etc.
He directed me to the sheriff's office and that was that. No problem as I am accustomed to at the several court facilities/sheriff's offices I have carried to.

When I arrived at the front counter at the SO, I informed them of m name and appointment and the deputy showed me to the sheriff's office.
Soon after Sheriff Savokinas arrived and we exchanged greetings and sent in his office and sat down.

We chatted for a couple minutes about how he was happy to have me come by as he is still learning things in relation to LTCF's and firearms carry. I reciprocated by thanking him for being willing to hear my/our thoughts and that we were very interested in working directly with law enforcement to keep the dialog open so as to promote positive changes and relationships.
Sheriff told me that his door is always open to the public and is willing to hear out everyones concerns and input. We discussed briefly how busy they were lately with licenses and about how gun carrying and gun rights in general are on the come-back, so to say.

I briefly introduced myself in regards to what I do with PAFOA, paopencarry.org and in regards to pa gun rights through the two org's such as interacting with other sheriff's, LEO, twp's, media, etc.
I explained that despite that, that this type of meeting was done on my own accord, as an individual, that represents the views of other folks of these organizations and not as an official rep to PAFOA. I also clarified that we are not a PAC and as such we share political interests but are not making demands or offers of political help/favors.
We discussed how gun owners, including PAFOA members, were supporting Sheriff Savokinas' candidacy. He admitted he was elected because of his stance on the position, not by his party (democrat). I agreed and said it was a breath of fresh air to see politics work the way it should.

Just as we got into the first topic on my notes, the Sheriff's Chief Deputy Guarnieri joined us. He introduced himself and told me he was very interested in any web links I could give him in regards to firearms and firearms law. I let him know I had a bunch on the flyers that we were going to discuss.

So we then preceded to go over my notes I prepared. I gave the sheriff a copy so he could follow along and keep for his records.

Here are the notes:

I am staff at Pennsylvania Firearms Association and founder of Pa. Open Carry .ORG but I am here today as a single individual giving feedback on things I had personally noticed or want to suggest. I believe my concerns are shared by some other gun owners in the area. Obviously I am not making any kind of demands. I’m just looking to start a dialog with what is presumably a common goal with the Sheriff’s office to better serve the citizens of Luzerne County. You might agree with some points, and you might disagree with some. In the end, it is your decision on what, if anything, to do about the things we discuss.


Instructions/cover sheet provided with LTCF applications should be revised
• Change name of document to “License to Carry Firearms Instructions” For technical accuracy sake.
• Line #4: "Processing time is usually 3 (three) weeks...."
Has the background check process changed? Are you doing more extensive checks? This question is out of pure curiosity as many Luzerne county residents are used to the same day turn-around.

• Line #9: "If your address changes please notify our office immediately. A $5 administrative fee will apply for new card issuance if requested."
I point this out for two reasons.
1. There is no provision under the law (18Pa.C.S.§6109) to change LTCF's subsequent to intra-state address change. All one need do upon moving is update their drivers license (w/in 15 days) or state ID, and they are compliant with the law. LTCF's do not need to be updated by any statute that I am aware and there is no provision that I am aware of to provide a means to do this within 18Pa.C.S.§6109
That is not to say you can’t do it, if you want, but you may want to double check with the solicitor to be sure.
2. Given the facts above, I’m not sure it’s something you would feel worth providing since it is not required. Just want to bring it to your attention.


“A Friendly Reminder on Firearms Responsibility” Form should be revised for clarity.

• Line #2: "Overt and unnecessary display of your firearm in public places can cause alarm to the public and may result in revocation of your permit."

I'm concerned with the way this is worded in respect to the interpretation by the least sophisticated citizen. As I'm sure you are aware, open carry is perfectly legal in Pa. and not grounds (by itself) for LTCF revocation. The point of my concern is that the average citizen can, and likely will, confuse #2 to mean open carry is illegal. Of course, we both are aware that using a firearm to intimidate or threaten another individual is not lawful and can result in a number of charges including assault, terroristic threats and even disorderly conduct. Regardless of the outcome of such charges, or in conjunction with, the act of Intimidation or threats with a firearm could surely be argued to be grounds for LTCF revocation under 18PACS6109(e)(1)(i), and I assume this is the intent of the passage above (#2). If so, I recommend, in the interest of clarity, that #2 be amended or re-written so as to be more clear.
Examples:
1. Amending #2 to include "in a manner intended to intimidate or threaten".
2. Replacing with something simpler such as "While open carry is lawful, exposing or "flashing" your firearm with the intent to intimidate or threaten is not.

• Line #5: "Do not carry your firearm when consuming alcoholic beverages or taking prescription medications that may affect your abilities and/or judgment."

We would likely all agree that "common sense" would apply to both the issue of taking drugs that may, or are likely to, affect ones judgment and consuming alcohol in a quantity that would affect the judgment of the individual. However, consuming alcohol or taking prescription medication while carrying is certainly not prohibited by statute. Again, I recommend editing to clarify this so as not to be construed as a legal citation and rather the suggestion that it is.
Example:
Adding: “While not illegal to carry while on prescription drugs or consuming alcohol, care must be taken to not do so in if the influence of such drugs or alcohol consumption were to cause poor judgment on your part. You are responsible for your actions whether medication or alcohol has affected your judgment or not”.
• #9: "If you are carrying a firearm and come into contact with a Law Enforcement Officer, follow all instructions you are given. Do not make any sudden moves, keep your hands visible, and notify the officer immediately that you have a firearms license and a firearm on your person."

In regards to the bolded section. There is no requirement to inform law enforcement that one is carrying in Pa. As such, I recommend this be amended to make it clear that this is a "suggestion" and not a requirement.
Example: Replace “and notify the officer….” With “While every day interaction with law enforcement does not require you to inform an officer that you are carrying, it is highly recommended that you do inform if you are being stopped for a vehicle or other code infraction or otherwise being investigated. “


General Suggestions

• Along the lines of the "Friendly reminder" document on the Sheriff Dept website, that I presume you are also providing with approved LTCFs, I would like to suggest that you examine these flyers titled: “Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights” The flyers were developed to be a quick yet comprehensive guide of the most often misunderstood and/or most important firearms laws.
• Many people want to be law-abiding, but don't know where to find accurate information.
• Some LEOs are unclear on firearms related points of law. The brochure clearly indicates the applicable statute and section, so validity can be easily confirmed.
• If you were interested in providing this flyer, or a customized version of the flyer to LTCF recipients I would be more than happy to work with you on creating one for that purpose.

Here is the responses, conclusions in regards to the above notes:

Instructions/cover sheet provided with LTCF application:
1) Discussed changing the nae of the instructions to "License to Carry Firearms", for technical accuracy. I explained that while CCW is pretty common wording, that some people were picky about the difference and that being more technically accurate may work towards being more professional and less confusing. Sheriff said he could see my point and would take it into considertion.
2) Line #4: Processing time.
We discussed the way Luzerne Co used to issue in that they ran PICS and issued if it came back a go. Sheriff explained that thy are going to do more than PICS now.
From now on they will be doing the following:

* Verifying info on form is correct/true
* Calling references
* PICS check
* Running NCIC and any docket info they have access to.

They will NOT be calling employers as was reported. Neither the Sheriff or the Cheif Deputy see any relevance and understand the issue of concern that people may have with that and do not want people to not apply due to such a thing. So that's been clarified.

Sheriff also told me they had some revocations recently due directly to the issue that PICS does not always come back current or correct.
I brought up that in addition to the PICS check being not up to date, inaccurate, etc, that there was the issue of the LTCF denial reasons listed in 6109 were more stringent than the enumerated offenses listed in 6105 in regards to possession. One specific example is that in 6109 any conviction under the Controlled Substance and Abuse Act is a disqualifier for LTCF. Your CSAA conviction must have the one year max sentance in order to bar you from possession.
I agreed with them that these extra checks are prudent and they said they do not think the process will take the full three weeks but as they are new to the new process they stated 3 weeks to be safe.

3) Line #9: Address change.
As the notes explain, I just was curious and wanted to them to make sure there was no issue with this, especially not knowing any benefit to doing so.
Sheriff told me he checked with the solicitor and he confirmed that while there is no provision for it that it doesn't say they can't update peoples licenses if they want to. He explained that they were interested in doing this to avoid potential confusion with law enforcement in the event someone has moved and is in a situation such as that they may not have their drivers license with them (like as a passenger in a vehicle) to verify the updated info that would be discussed potentially verbally by the citizen an officer. I said I see no problem with this as long as it's voluntary.

Next we went on to the "A friendly Reminder on Firearms Responsibility" handout.

1) #2: "Overt and unnecessary display...."We discussed this wording, per my notes above and my suggestions. I also asked if they had used this from another county because the wording looked familiar but that I could not remember where I saw it. The Sheriff said yes and he thinks it was Erie Co.
He and the Chief acknowledged the reason for the suggestions and said he'll consider that and pass it through the solicitor as well.

2) #5 "Do not carry your firearm when consuming alcohol....."
&
3) #9 "Inform LEO"

Pretty much the same here. We were all on the same page in regards to the intent of the message vs. the concerns over how it is worded.
They will consider the suggestions in so far as making the info more clear. As well as discuss with solicitor. They said they may make some of the suggested changes or may just place a disclaimer in the sheet about the info being "common sense suggestions".

Pa. Gun Rights Flyer.

Both the Sheriff and the Chief Deputy were VERY interested in the flyer. I brought along half dozen or so so they could see them and share internally.
We went over the whole flyer, briefly, and discussed the reasons the flyer exists. Mainly because Pa. residents that carry firearms WANT to be law abiding but there is a disturbing amount of incorrect info being passed about via word of mouth, including by law enforcement, in regards to gun laws.
I explained we could easily customize the flyer with the Sheriff's Dept. logo and any content additions/subtractions.
Sheriff asked me to make him a draft suggested version to which I said I would and told him to look it over and email/call me with any ideas he has. Either before or after I make the first draft.
The flyers I gave him were some that were professionally printed. I explained that to him and added that most people, gunshops, etc that use them just print their own since they are less expensive. He asked me about printing prices so I told him I had a source that I would ask about pricing. They are definitely interested in these flyers as they completely agree about the necessity of [/b]correct[/b] info being available.

Another thing we discussed briefly was the article this past week in the Scranton Times:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...questions.html
We discussed how the media is NOT our (gun owners) friend and as can be seen will try and blame guns, and in this case the issuing authority of LTCF's, for issues that do not even involve such. Not going into further detail, but suffice to say, we were again all on the same page

After that we wrapped it up with some other chat about gun rights, info etc, in general, and exchanged cards. I told them to call/email any time and that I would probably see them at the MPEOTC meeting next month

In conclusion/Overall observations:
The meeting ran about an hour and a half. So the above is obviously just a summary of our meeting. I am very satisfied with what was accomplished and very pleased I could meet with the new Sheriff in person as he is a great guy to talk to. So is Chief Deputy Guarnieri. Sheriff Savokinas told me that he is not "a gun guy". But he is a pro-constitution guy. He believes strongly in the laws working to the benefit of the people and he and the Chief both seemed to agree with my personal opinion, when we discussed such, that gun controls typically do not make the population "safe". It is my opinion that they are both tremendous allies to Pa. gun owners as well as all citizens. They take their position seriously and are very concerned with being fair, knowledgeable and effective. KUDOS to them and I'll be sure to post follow-ups as to the flyers, etc as time goes on.

I hope our meeting is an example of things to come elsewhere in the state. Anyone interested in doing a similar thing in their county don't hesitate to contact me or start a thread about how to go about it, what to say, etc. I think that if we made an effort to do this in every county we could resolve a lot of concerns and problems regarding LTCF issues.

[tobor]

Can please elaborate on the law regarding possession of a controlled substance, (specifically marijuana and/or paraphernalia) What specifically would deny a LTC, and what would deny just the right to own a firearm. I am confused on this point.

Thanks

[gf45acp]

Sounds like the meeting went very well Rich. Good work once again.

[FNG19]

Yesterday I met with Sheriff Savokinas.

THANK YOU. I don't know if I'll ever be in Luzerne County, but the people of the State of PA are better off for the time you took. I appreciate it!

[shooter357]

It is nice to see that not all LEO's are anti gun. Nice job Rich.

[BlownNitroPontiac]

Security: "Why do you carry a firearm like that?"
Me: (with a smile) "I carry a firearm every day."

Good "non-answer."

[Pa. Patriot]

Can please elaborate on the law regarding possession of a controlled substance, (specifically marijuana and/or paraphernalia) What specifically would deny a LTC, and what would deny just the right to own a firearm. I am confused on this point.
Thanks

18PACS6105 is the section that enumerates what offenses disqualify ownership/possession.

paragraph (c)(2) of 6105 specifies the following:

(2) A person who has been convicted of an offense under
the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The
Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act, or any
equivalent Federal statute or equivalent statute of any other
state, that may be punishable by a term of imprisonment
exceeding two years.

LTCF's are issued in accordance with 18PACS6109.

6109(e)(1) stipulates that LTCF's shall be denied for all the reasons listed in that section. One of which is the enumerated offenses in 6105. Another one; 6109(e)(1)(ii), disqualifies any conviction under the CSA act.
**See bolded part.

(e) Issuance of license.--
(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the
purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's
person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an
investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the
applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause
exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to
any of the following:
(i) An individual whose character and reputation is
such that the individual would be likely to act in a
manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an
offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64),
known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and
Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated
in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years,
has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in
section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled
Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who
has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an
unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or
narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been
convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a
term exceeding one year except as provided for in section
6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not
possess a current license or permit or similar document
to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is
provided for by the laws of that state, as published
annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the
Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to
definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the
armed forces of the United States under dishonorable
conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice.
This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose
fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary
offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles).
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited
from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling,
purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided
by section 6105.
(xiv) An individual who is prohibited from
possessing or acquiring a firearm under the statutes of
the United States.

[Pa. Patriot]

Good "non-answer."

Sometimes "non answers" are the best answers

[tobor]

So, as far as LTC, is the law ruling out ANY offense under the Controlled Substance Act, (i.e. a kid gets caught with one joint) regardless of the duration of the potential sentence?

[SFMarine]

I'm glad the sheriff was able to meet with you and for the amount of time he allowed you to be forthcoming. An hour and a half is a long time but it sounds like a lot of information was exchanged. I'm glad to see it went so well and I'm also happy to hear that he's highly interested with the flier. Throw his logo on there and I think he'll be overwhelmed! Really well done though...I'm impressed by the comments.