How do you answer this argument?

[Tokamak]

During a recent informal debate I heard:

In Brinton (Europe) they don't have guns and they are much safer.

I have heard that a couple of times.

Another I heard in that debate was "The murder rate by hand guns in NYC is greater then the number of soldiers dying in the war". I answered this with NYC has the greatest hand gun controls in the nation. They need to arm more honest citizens.

I have not done any fact checking on either statement by the anti.

_____________________
Since I did this post I did some checking and Switzerland, where people carry around assualt rifles, has a lower gun murder rate percentage than England!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...900133_pf.html

That is one great rebutal.

[angus]

Show'em this:

http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/Lon...ime-EW.xls.pdf

and this

http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2007/01...ime-in-us.html

[awkx]

Good info in this post: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2...tml#post283058

[Steve in PA]

How many US sports fans are killed in the stands by rioting fans?

How many in Europe??

[Pa. Patriot]

A favorite lesson of mine in arguing with anti's

Give It to Them Straight
by John Ross
Author of Unintended Consequences

Source



The biggest mistake we make is failing to take the moral high ground on our issue, and letting our
enemies define the terms.

THEY SAY: "We'd be better off if no one had guns."

WE SAY: "You can never succeed at that, criminals will always get guns." (FLAW: The implication here is that if you
COULD succeed, it would be a reasonable plan.)

WE SHOULD SAY: "So, you want to institute a system where the weak and elderly are at the mercy of the strong, the
lone are at the mercy of the gang. You want to give violent criminals a government guarantee that citizens are disarmed.
Sorry, that's unacceptable. Better that we should require every citizen to carry a gun."

***

THEY SAY: "Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don't need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer --
they're only for killing people."

WE SAY: "I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire.
My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I've never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me, blah, blah, blah."
(FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace
your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.)

WE SHOULD SAY: "Your claim that 'they're only for killing people' is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is
designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high capacity
military-type rifle or handgun is designed for CONFLICT. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most
reliable, most durable, highest capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with
freedom is that they're good practice."

***

THEY SAY: "If we pass this CCW law, it will be like the Wild West, with shoot-outs all the time for fender-benders, in
bars, etc. We need to keep guns off the streets. If doing so saves just one life, it will be worth it."

WE SAY: "Studies have shown blah blah blah." (flaw: You have implied that if studies showed CCW laws equaled more
heat-of-passion shooting, CCW should be illegal.

WE SHOULD SAY: "Although no state has experienced what you are describing, that's not important. What is important
is our freedom. If saving lives is more important that anything else, why don't we throw out the Fifth amendment? We have
the technology to administer an annual truth serum session to the entire population. We'd catch the criminals and mistaken
arrest would be a thing of the past. How does that sound?"

***

THEY SAY: "I don't see what the big deal is about a five day waiting period."

WE SAY: "It doesn't do any good, criminals don't wait five days, it's a waste of resources blah blah blah." (FLAW: You
have implied that if waiting periods DID reduce crime, they would be a good idea.)

WHAT WE SHOULD SAY: "How about a 24-hour cooling-off period with a government review board before the news is
reported? Wouldn't that prevent lives from being ruined, e.g. Richard Jewell? And the fact that this law applies to people
who ALREADY own a handgun tells me that it's not about crime prevention, it's about harassment. Personally, I want to
live in a free society, not a 'safe' one with the government as chief nanny."

***

THEY SAY: "In 1776, citizens had muskets. No one ever envisioned these deadly AK-47s. I suppose you think we should
all have atomic bombs."

WE SAY: "Uh, well, uh . . ."

WE SHOULD SAY: "Actually, the Founders discussed this very issue - it's in the Federalist Papers. They wanted the
citizens to have the same guns as were the issue weapons of soldiers in a modern infantry. Soldiers in 1776 were each
issued muskets, but not the large field pieces with exploding shells. In 1996, soldiers are issued M16s, M249s, etc. but not
howitzers and atomic bombs. Furthermore, according to your logic, the laws governing freedom of the press are only valid
for newspapers whose presses are hand-operated and use fixed type. After all, no one in 1776 foresaw offset printing or
electricity, let alone TV and satellite transmission."

***

THEY SAY: "We require licenses on cars, but the powerful NRA screams bloody murder if anyone ever suggests licensing
these weapons of mass destruction."

WE SAY: Nothing, usually, and just sit there looking dumb.

WE SHOULD SAY:"You know, driving is a luxury, where firearms ownership is a right secured by the Constitution. But
let's put that aside for a moment. It's interesting you compared guns and vehicles. Here in the U.S. you can AT ANY AGE
go into any state and buy as many motorcycles, cars, or trucks of any size as you want, and you don't need to do anything if
you don't use them on public property. If you DO want to use them on public property, you can get a license at age 16. This
license is good in all 50 states. NO waiting periods, no background checks, nothing. If we treated guns like cars, a fourteenyear-
old could go into any state and legally buy handguns, machine guns, cannons, whatever, cash and carry, and shoot
them all with complete legality on private property. And at age 16 he could get a state license good anywhere in the country
to shoot these guns on public property."

***

Final comment, useful with most all arguments:

YOU SAY: "You know, I'm amazed at how little you care about your grandchildren. I would have thought they meant
more to you than anything."

THEY SAY:"Huh?"

YOU SAY: "Well, passing this proposal won't have a big immediate effect. I mean, in the next couple of years, neither Bill
Clinton nor Newt Gingrich is going to open up internment camps like Roosevelt did fifty-odd years ago. But think of your
worst nightmare of a political leader. Isn't it POSSIBLE that a person like that MIGHT be in control here some time in the
next 30, 40, or 50 years, with 51% of the Congress and 51% of the Senate behind him? If that does happen, do you
REALLY what your grandchildren to have been stripped of their final guarantee of freedom? And do you really want them
to have been stripped of it BY YOU?

[Dredly]

NYC has more people in it that a few Euorpean nations if I remember correctly, its also nowhere near the top in homicides. There were 494 murders in the Big Apple in 2007 - 102 fewer than in 2006.

- There are more homicides in the US every year then the number of soldiers we have lost in The War on Terror.

- there are an estimated 1million + gang members in the US

- Homicide is the number one cause of death among black males age 14 - 26 (may be off on the ages by a year or 2)

[Tokamak]

Wow, a great bunch of responses.

Thanks for the insights.

[LittleRedToyota]

During a recent informal debate I heard:

In Brinton (Europe) they don't have guns and they are much safer.

I have heard that a couple of times.

this is a lie. one of the brady bunch's worst lies.

violent crime rates in britain (and australia and numerous other countries with strict gun control) are much higher than those in the US.

here are some more sources:

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/L...nsBurglars.htm

http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/ic...000i/index.htm

http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/ic...-icvs-app4.pdf (this one has the hard stats)

[Whiskey Delta]

You simply cannot argue a point that leads off with a blatant lie.

People are simply NOT safer, and the constant rise of violent crime in the UK shows that A: gun laws do nothing to prevent crime, but furthermore INCREASE violent crime by disarming the type of people who would not bend their knee when confronted by a thug.

Secondly, the UK crime wave has roots also in the socialistic fervor in which the SUBJECTS in the UK are having their basic civil rights violated on a daily basis by their government and their court system.

Homeowners have the expectation that if a guy comes in the front door with a bat or knife, you may as well climb out your second floor window and avoid all confrontation, since your defense of your domicile will be seen as an act of violence against a pitiful burglar. He will get state attorneys to protect his right to violate your house and home without any interference on your part at all.

The UK is a toilet right now. They need a revolution badly there.

The other posters have given sufficient arguments, but understand that the first thing you must do when confronted with a lie is to call it out, right then and there.

[larrymeyer]

Like saying in Japan there isn't a lot of murders committed with guns as guns are banned. But in Japan the murder weapon of choice has always been the sword or knife. In India the murder weapon of choice is the garrot. Different cultaures have different choices and if your comparing them it's like saying which is better and apple or an orange, a 45 or 9MM