And Thanksgiving was going so well...

[silvertiger27]

I have a thankfully conservative family, though sort of an unorthodox conservative: we're not religious, my parents are divorced, and the reason is because my father is homosexual and recently married his French partner. Though give my parents credit, they somehow are still very amiable and we all get together on holidays, even my father's partner.

Politically though, we're all conservative, even the French guy, and my father (who now lives in NYC, the belly of the beast) loves talking politics. He's as red-blooded an American as they come and has remained so from here to France, where he spends much of his time. It's also worth mentioning, we all lived in NJ for the first 20-some odd years of my life.

Now, since I recently moved to PA, my newfound status as a gun-owner and CCer is foreign and somewhat frightening to my parents, especially my mother (who is still in NJ). To her credit, she did come shooting with me a couple times, though cleansing her mind of decades of media brainwashing is proving difficult.

So after Thanksgiving dinner was done, the subject of conceal carry came up, and I'd never heard my father's take on the 2A in general. To my extreme dismay, he was rather uppity about how harmful the 2A is, how it's a relic of the past, how it endangers cops, how blood would run in the streets, etc etc, basically every shallow gun-grabber excuse you've ever heard. I tried my damndest, but he wouldn't have any of it. I don't mind saying, I lost a good deal of respect for my father on the 24th.

Some of this is just venting, but I do have a question. How do you deal with family members like this? Am I presumptuous to feel less respect? Would you try conversing further with him, or just ignore the subject?

[mpan72]

You could beat him with a bat untill he agrees with you. Then you can tell him that guns are safe but bats should be banned. I don't see how that argument could fail.



JK.

[Emptymag]

Maybe you could use his homosexuality to your advantage by explaining some of the fears and unfair characterizations that run parallel to gun ownership.

[son of the revolution]

OP, I think its safe to say your pretty much screwed, the combination of 20 plus years of living in The Peoples Socialist Republic of NJ, plus spending extended time in France has pretty much sealed the deal when it comes to your father mindset.

You could try pointing out that Carry Laws started in 1986 and spread to all but 48 States currently and the streets arent running with blood.

You could try pointing out that survey after survey of rank and file street cops fully SUPPORT the 2A AND law abiding citizens right to carry for self defense.

You could try pointing out that Vermont ( one of the most liberal States in the Union, including having a Senator that freely admits to being an avowed Socialist ) has NO carry permit requirements of any kind what so ever.

You could try pointing out that every major study of concealed carry has shown beyond any credible doubt that a citizen uses a firearm to defend himself/herself or a loved one no less then 700K times annually, an amount exponentially higher then the total of ALL firearms related homicides/suicides/accidents.

You could try asking Dad if he keeps a spare tire in the trunk, a fire extinguisher in the kitchen and wears his seatbelt when in a car ? Of course he'll exclaim YES of course, if something happened its just prudent to be prepared, even though the odds of him having a fire or a flat or a wreck are pretty slim in the grand scheme of things. You owning and carrying a firearm is no different.

Yes, you could try all this, but like I said I dont hold out much hope for your success given the Anti Gun influences your Dad has been subjected to the vast majority of his life. Good Luck !

[Connal]

Maybe you could use his homosexuality to your advantage by explaining some of the fears and unfair characterizations that run parallel to gun ownership.

This might work quite well. For years, homosexuality was treated like a disease. People were afraid it would spread through contact, groups that speak of tolerance showed none. Many people were convinced it would ruin the world.

Rights for the gay community have come quite a long way in the past thirty years or so. However, there are still many stereotypes, and unfounded fears that may persist for many years to come.

Maybe pointing out the similarities to the way that guns, and homosexuals have been feared, would put it in perspective for him.

He is entitled to his opinion of course. However, with his life choices, you would think he would be a little more open minded to at least hearing your side of it.

[Siobhra]

Point him in the direction of the Pink Pistols. We love to put it in a Gay Way.

We can (and do) call gun laws 'anti-gay'. We can pull the Gay Card on gun laws. We are prime targets of violence in this country. And around the world. If word got out we carry and we are not afraid to shoot a lot of Gay Bashing would end. You will not need to put so much effort into bullying laws or any other Gay Rights fight if bigots did not see us as an easy target.

Tell him that. And tell him you have a Gay Friend who told you to tell him that.

[Irwin Inhabitant]

Also, you could send him a constant stream of emails with stories of every violent crime commited with a weapon that is not a gun related, as they occur. Knife, bat, hammer, carpenter's level, cement block, laptop, rock, shoe, dog chain, porch furniture, electrical cord, hockey stick, bottle, frying pan/skillet,,etc,etc.

There are lots of crimes committed with weapons other than guns, but the media never seeks hysteric reactions to those stories.

Here is what I like to do to respond to certain hopeless liberal anti-gun people who send me emails every time some gangbanger thug shoots another thug during a drug deal. People who will not even listen to any other side of the debate. Won't even have to mention the obvious illegal gun ownership issues right now. Just one of many examples I could give here....

Not long ago I was able to respond to an anti-gun propaganda email almost immediately with something like this:

The articles and links I sent back were about fatal homicides and beatings committed with a hammer. The anti-gun libs (a married couple, nice folks mostly except about guns) who send these to me, I knew were currently in the process of having some major remodeling work done at their house.
I warned them several times about the workers at their house who carried an evil deadly hammer with a mind of it's own on their tool belt, in easy reach.

The carpenters, roofers, brick masons, carpet and tile layers, and probably even the landscapers all had easy access to this evil weapon called a hammer. Anyone could just walk into Lowes, Home Depot, WalMart, or elsewhere and just buy one with no background check or license.

I pointed out the obvious dangers of this weapon that is made in many sizes and configurations, I even included different pictures (as they sometimes do), and I questioned why anyone needed a hammer bigger than a 5 ounce tack hammer? If not only to kill people? And the ones made with a black handle are even way more evil and deadly.

I also pointed out the size and political influence of the NHA=National Hammer Association= and how they were such a powerful lobby in D.C. and legislations, and how they allegedly bribed politicians. Just to promote an evil blood thirsty and deadly weapon that the majority of people don't want in our streets, and causes so much bloodshed. We have to do all we can to pass more laws to get the hammers off the streets.

I also pointed out that if you were a hammer owner, the chances of it being turned against you during an attack were very high. Just call 911 and let the police handle it. And God forbid! What if one of your kids played with it?
Blah, blah..........

Their reply was something like this:
"Only professionals who use a hammer in their line of work should have them. Kids and criminals should not be able to just walk into a hammer show and buy one. They are NOT safe!"

I replied: "I hope you cleaned off your tool bench and that shelf in your shed."

Obviously they saw the futility of their efforts to 'convert' me to an anti-gun position. Now I kinda miss the hysterical emails they used to send to me. I actually think they are mad at me, as if I somehow offended them.

Point here is: They have not really softened their position, but are less vocal about it with me and some other 'gun nuts', since they realize just how strange they sound when they hear it back at them in their own style of rhetoric.

[vicious]

Anti gun folks in the LGBT community confuse me as much as anti gun folks in the Jewish community.

Definitely talk to Siobhra there for information on the pink pistols. It's a good organization and there are plenty of LGBT shooters out there.

I'm not sure you want to go the route of comparing and contrasting the plight of the LGBT community vs that of gun owners as that might be construed as offensive. Yes, people make unfair stereotypes about us, but last i checked we weren't born this way nor have I come across any instances of gun owners getting beaten half to death just for being gun owners. Doesn't mean you can't work a similar angle.

You can try to use this simple variation of a proven method that I use on my anti-gun friends to convert them to gun owners:

-You: Dad, i want to understand you feelings on guns, can you explain to me what you see as the "typical gun owner"

-Dad: (insert every gun-owner stereotype here)

-You: That's probably all true...I'm sure those redneck, bible-thumping, sister-fucking, backwoods, clan rallying dirt farmers and Gangbanging, flash-mobbing, hoodrats, aside from all of them having guns, are all very accepting of your orientation and have no interest in stuff like committing hate crimes.

-Dad: uh...why don't you teach me how to use that gun of yours.

Alright, maybe it's not that easy, but trust me, even people who don't like guns can easily come to the realization that they exist regardless of how they feel and there is utility in knowing how to use them. That's the first step. Once they have more exposure, then they can start to reevaluate their prejudices.

[Chip W]

My family dont get it. Guns, carry, preparedness etc. But they are also in England so 2a isnt relevant, and thus them being "subjects" they are not permitted to have their own unbiased views on the issue.

[American1776]

Sorry to hear that your dad has some misguided thoughts on the 2nd amendment and gun rights. It's a tough situation.

Unfortunately, there are some folks who are not open to changing their minds about some issues. If a person is not willing to acknowledge arguments, evidence, and reason, then there can be no debate. I'm a philosophy professor, so I know my way around debates. I have actually heard people say 'I don't care what evidence or rational argument you show me, I will not change my mind'. If this is the case, it's best to just refrain from talking about it.

However, if you think your dad will still listen to reason and argument, then you can argue from either an empirical evidence standpoint, or an a priori standpoint.

There is a lot of empirical evidence done by respectable researchers that really supports gun rights (ownership and carry), and that refutes gun control. See the works of John Lott and Gary Kleck. When your debate opponent uses 'what if' arguments for gun control, remind them that we don't need 'what if' scenarios, we can actually look at the data of responsible gun owners.

From an a priori standpoint, you can talk about the theoretical underpinnings for the 2nd Amendment, principles of freedom and individual rights, and why guns in the right hands are really a good thing! ie: what happens if we could, by some miracle, make guns go away? That would be a terrible world: the strong would dominate the weak, the many would rule the minority. The elderly, the poor, the disabled, women, and the physically weak would have no chance against the strong, the many, the powerful, and the evil. When the rioting starts, do you want to cower in corner and wait to be pillaged, or do you want to wait in a corner, ready to defend yourself when they come? If you want to cower in the corner, that's fine, and I grant you the freedom of choice to do so---but do not take away my freedom to choose to defend my own life. (these sorts of arguments).

If people are at least willing to listen, and think about things, sometimes their minds can be changed.