PAFOA's Non-profit Status & 990 forms, etc.

[ScaredOnce]

Hey, all..

I was just wondering, is there a location on the site where PAFOA's financials are located?

Not that I'm questioning the ethics of those who make the financial decisions. Rather, I'd like to see a few things and look at how the association is progressing. The financial statement is important and I'd like to understand it first before looking further into the association's management. This type of transparency is requisite for the success of a group like ours. I think every member should have an interest.

Further, an association like PAFOA can really use that data to "sell itself" and promote growth via the display of success. I'll take it for granted that those in charge of this site are intimately familiar with these association management principles and leave this post at this brevity. Obviously, we all are familiar with such concepts.

Appreciate any info and apologize if this is somewhere I haven't found by searching.

[TheF00L]

Hey, all..

I was just wondering, is there a location on the site where PAFOA's financials are located?

Not that I'm questioning the ethics of those who make the financial decisions. Rather, I'd like to see a few things and look at how the association is progressing. The financial statement is important and I'd like to understand it first before looking further into the association's management. This type of transparency is requisite for the success of a group like ours. I think every member should have an interest.

Further, an association like PAFOA can really use that data to "sell itself" and promote growth via the display of success. I'll take it for granted that those in charge of this site are intimately familiar with these association management principles and leave this post at this brevity. Obviously, we all are familiar with such concepts.

Appreciate any info and apologize if this is somewhere I haven't found by searching.

Forgive me for this question but here goes. You have obviously already donated to the organization with out this information. Of what use can this info be to us as individual members? You stated that:

This type of transparency is requisite for the success of a group like ours.

I disagree. There are many instances where a member has been turned onto this sight by the word of an existing member alone. There are also many instances where a new member happened upon the sight while simply searching. This is how I found it. I even decided to donate w/o the information that you are requesting (as you did).

This forum has obviously grown and successfully prospered with out the dissemination of this information.

Unless this is something that has to legally be posted I totally disagree with you.

[ScaredOnce]

Unless this is something that has to legally be posted I totally disagree with you.

Yes. This info must be publicly available by IRS law, as I understand.

Maybe someone with more experience in 501(c)(3) and this type of non-profit's tax coverage can confirm or educate us...?



Please confirm. Yet, this type of transparency is TOTALLY required, man... !? Are you kidding. Look at some of the successful associations out there.

[MostlyHarmless]

Yes. This info must be publicly available by IRS law, as I understand.

Maybe someone with more experience in 501(c)(3) and this type of non-profit's tax coverage can confirm or educate us...?



Please confirm. Yet, this type of transparency is TOTALLY required, man... !? Are you kidding. Look at some of the successful associations out there.

I don't think there is a legal definition of an association (also known as unincorporated association) in the United States. Some jurisdictions require at least 4 members, some allow registration with the police, but unless you explicitly file for 501(c) status, there isn't even any necessary paperwork. Sure, many associations do have mandatory membership fees that are set, among other things, in bylaws, a code of conduct, a mission statement and all that, but there are no strict legal rules (to my knowledge, IANAL).

I would be extremely surprised if PAFOA was a 501(c) ... I would have expected a tax deductible receipt for my donation otherwise.

I do share your curiosity if someone is keeping track of donations and PAFOA related expenses, including reasonable reimbursement for official staff work.


Jan

[ScaredOnce]

I don't think there is a legal definition of an association (also known as unincorporated association) in the United States. Some jurisdictions require at least 4 members, some allow registration with the police, but unless you explicitly file for 501(c) status, there isn't even any necessary paperwork. Sure, many associations do have mandatory membership fees that are set, among other things, in bylaws, a code of conduct, a mission statement and all that, but there are no strict legal rules (to my knowledge, IANAL).

I would be extremely surprised if PAFOA was a 501(c) ... I would have expected a tax deductible receipt for my donation otherwise.

I do share your curiosity if someone is keeping track of donations and PAFOA related expenses, including reasonable reimbursement for official staff work.


Jan

Thanks for the insight. Yeah, that's mostly it... Just curiosity whose answers or other findings might help me understand other issues better.

Like I said in that other thread... This is all with positive motivation. I just want to learn more about the system and its processes.

[NightRocker]

I'm just the new guy (nobody) and I don't know alot about PAFOA, but I'm learning, What I do know is that it is a successful site and it could be better, but sudden change in any direction could be fatal. I have learned that from experinence on a successful site that had members that felt as you do. Their intentions were very well respected and they wanted change in a similar direction. I wish I could explain it better, but what you want will have to evolve in the direction you want, any other way could end it. I like to use this metaphor, Woodstock was a anomly, many have tryed to recreate it but, it did not have the same out come. I think the same holds true with this site. JMHO. I hope this all works out. Best to all Charlie.

[danp]

PAFOA operates as a 501(c)4 non-profit organization. It however does not bring in enough revenue to require the filing or publishing of a Form 990 disclosing financial data. I've never disclosed that publicly because I'd rather anti-gun groups who may be paying attention not know what's going on.

What I can tell you is that income is higher than costs and we've been saving money at a very healthy rate since the beginning.

If you have more specific questions, please feel free to ask. That's part of why this section of the site exists.

[wa3ra]

...and that's what makes it nice when we need faster servers or more bandwidth; the assets are there.

For that I offer DanP my thanks and gratitude!

[ScaredOnce]

PAFOA operates as a 501(c)4 non-profit organization. It however does not bring in enough revenue to require the filing or publishing of a Form 990 disclosing financial data. I've never disclosed that publicly because I'd rather anti-gun groups who may be paying attention not know what's going on.

What I can tell you is that income is higher than costs and we've been saving money at a very healthy rate since the beginning.

If you have more specific questions, please feel free to ask. That's part of why this section of the site exists.

Hey... Thanks, Dan. I appreciate the info and the brief reasoning behind the decision to not disclose.

Would it be out of the realm of possibilities to maybe give a "State of the Union" type release to subscribing members every month or even quarter?

I'm not proposing to have $-signs included. But, maybe rather number of subscribers, any change in the numbers and some insight as to the trend or what you think it means. etc. Just a way to get a general feel of up-swing or down-swing and possibly allow some members on the fence to maybe pull the trigger and donate. I agree that you probably should not disclose, until hopefully one day you have to! But, maybe sharing some sanitized info with the subscribing members wouldn't hurt, if presented right. Whata ya think?


Personally, I'd say this Financial Report sorta thing takes second priority to defining "Member" and "Association" more explicitly first for everyone. But, we can't talk about that publicly for a few days, thanks to thread closure.

[danp]

Would it be out of the realm of possibilities to maybe give a "State of the Union" type release to subscribing members every month or even quarter?

I did this every year in the original "Supporters forum" that existed pre-forum-subscriptions, and will most likely do it again at the end of 2009, although I don't know what exact data I will provide.