Massad Ayoob on talking to the police

[jshwak]

this was probably posted before.. but here is Massad Ayoob on what to say if you are involved in a self-defense shooting.

http://imomags.com/gunsandammo/2011/...real-shooting/

[father-of-five]

That's important information to memorize and never forget.

[jshwak]

That's important information to memorize and never forget.

it was an interesting point about evidence.. never really thought about it.

[sprrdhawk44]

Phenominal information, stuff that anyone who carries a firearm for self-defense should memorize.

[GunLawyer001]

Ayoob is certainly a well-known name in the firearms community, and he's testified at a lot of trials. He trusts cops, he sort of is one himself.

That being said, there are a lot of people sitting in jails who were the first to call 911. There are a lot more who called 911 who were the ones arrested. We've all heard that sort of call on the TV, where the defendant's call is played at trial, or is released before trial. "My wife is missing, I'm worried." "I just shot a man in self-defense, he had one of my kitchen knives in his hand."

Guilty people call 911 all the time, because they want to look like the victims. Cops know this at least as well as any 5 year old who's watched hundreds of hours of crime shows.

The reality is that in Pennsylvania, in most of the populated areas, the person who did the shooting is the bad guy, until proven otherwise.

I'm also disturbed by Ayoob's casual waiver of the 5th Amendment. What he's advising you to do is:
- Confess to the shooting.
- Identify yourself so they can find you.
- Remain on the scene so they can take you into immediate custody.
- Keep the weapon you used at the scene so they have it for the trial.

And THEN you can assert your right to remain silent? Why the fuck for? That's like fastening your seatbelt AFTER you hit the brick wall. What else do they need, they have you admitting to shooting a person. That's their prima facie case, they can hand your confession and the gun and the body over to the DA, and the trial can begin. The defense is YOUR problem, their initial burden was limited to proof that you used deadly force on a person, and you handed that to them.

[Ricochet]

Ayoob is certainly a well-known name in the firearms community, and he's testified at a lot of trials. He trusts cops, he sort of is one himself.

That being said, there are a lot of people sitting in jails who were the first to call 911. There are a lot more who called 911 who were the ones arrested. We've all heard that sort of call on the TV, where the defendant's call is played at trial, or is released before trial. "My wife is missing, I'm worried." "I just shot a man in self-defense, he had one of my kitchen knives in his hand."

Guilty people call 911 all the time, because they want to look like the victims. Cops know this at least as well as any 5 year old who's watched hundreds of hours of crime shows.

The reality is that in Pennsylvania, in most of the populated areas, the person who did the shooting is the bad guy, until proven otherwise.

I'm also disturbed by Ayoob's casual waiver of the 5th Amendment. What he's advising you to do is:
- Confess to the shooting.
- Identify yourself so they can find you.
- Remain on the scene so they can take you into immediate custody.
- Keep the weapon you used at the scene so they have it for the trial.

And THEN you can assert your right to remain silent? Why the fuck for? That's like fastening your seatbelt AFTER you hit the brick wall. What else do they need, they have you admitting to shooting a person. That's their prima facie case, they can hand your confession and the gun and the body over to the DA, and the trial can begin. The defense is YOUR problem, their initial burden was limited to proof that you used deadly force on a person, and you handed that to them.

Those are good points as well.

So let me ask, what would you as a defense attorney recommend to your client?

[Valorius]

As a guy with tons of real world Philly first hand experience (15+ years full time) in dealing with the cops (and criminals) in all kinds of crazy situations in every setting from suburban to the worst ghettos in the city, i would say to use your best judgement. Weigh the situation vs the demeanor and personality and questions of the cop. I've been surrounded by the entire UPENN PF with guns drawn, dozens of Philly cops with guns drawn, and a good chunk of the Bristol PD, many of whom had guns drawn, before. I talked my way out of it all 3 times without incident.

There are times when it can very much hurt you to talk to cops, and times when a few simple words can save you a LOT of grief.

If you're not good speaking under pressure, or are the sort to babble or talk too much....shut up entirely.

You may all take note that Viper also talks to the cops.

Sometimes the simple use of the phrase, "I understand you have a tough job sir, i'm on your side, i'm a veteran of the US Army" is all it takes to get you out of a jam. Sometimes, NOTHING you say will get you out of a jam, and in those cases, like when you get an asshat cop, or the circumstances look REALLY bad for you, or when you actually did something majorly wrong, it's best to just shut up.

A brief outline of my employment history is probably in order:

Subpoena server
Private Investigator
Bail Enforcement
Repossessor

Trust me when i tell you i have probably talked to more cops- out on the streets doing "shady things" as a potential suspect- than most of you will talk to in 100 lifetimes.

[GunLawyer001]

Those are good points as well.

So let me ask, what would you as a defense attorney recommend to your client?

It depends on the situation. I think it's too simplistic to say "always call 911 after a defensive shooting", and it's equally simplistic (and equally bad advice) to suggest "never call 911 after a defensive shooting".

We always discuss this at length in my second session of my Firearms Law Workshops, with examples of people who never should have spoken to the police.

If the police find you anyway, through witnesses or physical traces or the ubiquitous security cameras/ATM cams/cell phone cams, then your failure to call them is a factor at trial. But if they never find you (maybe they don't really want to find you, if the person shot was a constant problem for them), then you reduce your chances of an unwanted criminal conviction from "something" to "nothing".

[Metz]

It depends on the situation. I think it's too simplistic to say "always call 911 after a defensive shooting", and it's equally simplistic (and equally bad advice) to suggest "never call 911 after a defensive shooting".

Alright. Can you give an example of SD shooting situation when re-actor should not call the police? I honestly tried to come up with one but failed

[GunLawyer001]

Alright. Can you give an example of SD shooting situation when re-actor should not call the police? I honestly tried to come up with one but failed

Bernie Goetz.