C&R question

[cruzans]

Ok, hope this doesn't sound too dumb. I have a question on C&R purchases. I've had my C&R going on two years, best thing yet. My question is this :

I buy a C&R gun from a guy. I do everything by the book, get his ss number or address, keep good records, etc.. But, who is to say the gun was ever his on the books, maybe he bought it C&R too before selling it to me. So, I now have this gun, and I find myself needing to defend myself, and use the gun in self defense. After the dust clears, the Police run my information to be sure all is ok, and my gun comes back to some guy buying it 60 years ago and not me or the guy I bought it from.
Does it matter? Got thinking about it the other day when I was going to carry my Colt 1903 that I bought from a guy C&R.

[bogey1]

I guess as long as it doesnt come up stolen your ok. One of the locals will be by to answer you're question (better than i can).

[Hawk]

How are they possibly going to determine that the gun belonged to someone else 60 years ago?

From what I understand (I'm no expert):
-They can legally only check police records for lost or stolen guns.
-They can (illegally) check the PICs database, but the results of the search would be inconclusive because the db is only a list of sales in this state and only back so far (can't recall how far back).
-The PICs db doesn't always equal the current owner.

It's in your book now as yours right? That's all you need, unless it turns up as stolen, which you have in your books who you bought it from.

[cruzans]

Thanks guys. Yeah, it was just something I wondered about. Say 50 years ago John Smith bought a gun, had pics done, etc, etc., so gun is "registered" to him. Now I own it, but being C&R it never changed anything to my name and still shows out there as owned by John Smith. Just one of those things that popped into my thoughts one day - lol.

[Xringshooter]

Was the guy you bought it from a C&R holder or another class FFL? If so then it would also be on his books as to where it came from and where it went (to you). This would help give credibility to your claim that it was legally yours.

If not, then you would have the info of the guy you bought it from and the police (maybe) and your lawyer (definitely) would then go and talk to him.

[cruzans]

Was the guy you bought it from a C&R holder or another class FFL? If so then it would also be on his books as to where it came from and where it went (to you). This would help give credibility to your claim that it was legally yours.

If not, then you would have the info of the guy you bought it from and the police (maybe) and your lawyer (definitely) would then go and talk to him.

Have many C&R purchases, not one specific. Most were from individuals, some had C&R's, some had nothing. Was just curious how it worked with C&R seeing in "theory", seeing no paperwork is ever done with a C&R - the original owner technically is always on the "books" as the owner I would think ????

[Xringshooter]

- the original owner technically is always on the "books" as the owner I would think ????

It could happen even with a non C&R gun.

Scenerio with a C&R
Ruger makes a flat top Blackhawk in late 1961 and sells to XYZ, a wholesaler/distributor
XYZ sells it to ABC gun shop in early 1962
ABC sells it to John Doe in mid 1962
John Does sells it to Joe Shooter in 1970 - they live in a state that does not require any paperwork when sold privately - John Doe is still on the records as the owner (the 4473)
Joe Shooter moves to another state in 1980 after getting a divorce and sells the gun to Jim Schmoe because he needs some money - the state he now lives in is another state that requires no paperwork - John Doe is still the owner on record
Jim Schmoe sells it to Bucky in 1990 at a garage sale - John Doe is still the owner on record
Bucky sells it to Bob Smith in 2010 at a flea market - John Doe is still the owner on record
Bob Smith moves to PA in 2011. You buy it from Bob Smith in mid 2012 and put it in your C&R book - Paperwork wise, the gun went from John Doe to you.

And since more than 20 years have passed, the original 4473 (or the paperwork in place at that time) very well may have been destroyed. The trace would go from Ruger to XYZ to ABC and stop there as there are no more records of transfers until you bought it, and even then, the gun probably would never get traced to you if there was no illegal activity associated with it. Even then it would be a tough gun to trace.

[cruzans]

It could happen even with a non C&R gun.

Scenerio with a C&R
Ruger makes a flat top Blackhawk in late 1961 and sells to XYZ, a wholesaler/distributor
XYZ sells it to ABC gun shop in early 1962
ABC sells it to John Doe in mid 1962
John Does sells it to Joe Shooter in 1970 - they live in a state that does not require any paperwork when sold privately - John Doe is still on the records as the owner (the 4473)
Joe Shooter moves to another state in 1980 after getting a divorce and sells the gun to Jim Schmoe because he needs some money - the state he now lives in is another state that requires no paperwork - John Doe is still the owner on record
Jim Schmoe sells it to Bucky in 1990 at a garage sale - John Doe is still the owner on record
Bucky sells it to Bob Smith in 2010 at a flea market - John Doe is still the owner on record
Bob Smith moves to PA in 2011. You buy it from Bob Smith in mid 2012 and put it in your C&R book - Paperwork wise, the gun went from John Doe to you.

And since more than 20 years have passed, the original 4473 (or the paperwork in place at that time) very well may have been destroyed. The trace would go from Ruger to XYZ to ABC and stop there as there are no more records of transfers until you bought it, and even then, the gun probably would never get traced to you if there was no illegal activity associated with it. Even then it would be a tough gun to trace.

That's it then, I'm not buying any more guns from John Doe or Jim Schmoe! Lol, sorry, couldn't resist. I hear ya, and makes total sense. Was just something I was thinking about when I was going to carry one of my C&R guns last week. I do need to read up some more on the C&R license too - I got my license a couple years ago w/o doing my homework, and for a while, did not realize I had to keep books, so I had to back track. Then someone mentioned to me that anyone that has a C&R gives up their rights to searches of their home - i.e. ATF does not need a warrant to search your residence. Now again, no reason for ATF to search my house, and they would not find anything illegal, but just the thought of not having to have a warrant gets you a little bajiggity

[Xringshooter]

Then someone mentioned to me that anyone that has a C&R gives up their rights to searches of their home - i.e. ATF does not need a warrant to search your residence. Now again, no reason for ATF to search my house, and they would not find anything illegal, but just the thought of not having to have a warrant gets you a little bajiggity

That's just not true. The BATFE can come to your house no notice to examine you bound book and such, but they cannot search your house without a warrant, just like any person. You do not give up your 4A rights just because you have a FFL of any type. I have discussed this with BATFE agents in the past.

What can happen, is that they come to your house to examine you records (and by the way, they will make an appointment with you to do this, unannounced visits are VERY rare), and your records and/or your record keeping area are at the far end of the house and you lead the agent to them. Along the way, he sees something out of the ordinary, maybe something illegal. He will note that and report it. If it is the BATFE's jurisdiction, they will act, if not, it will get passed to other people who do have jurisdiction (local police maybe) and that entity will act on the observation (possibility getting a search warrant. Unless he is a LE BATFE agent, helping out the compliance section, he does not have arrest powers. There are several sections in the BATFE, some of the agents have arrest power and some don't. The last compliance agent that visited me, June of last year, did not have arrest powers, we talked about it and he told me he couldn't arrest me but he could call someone to do it, including local police.

Don't worry about unannounced searches of your house just because you have a C&R license (unless you're doing something illegal and they are right now building a case against you )

[thundrr1]

If I remember correctly (without looking it up), you have the option to take your collection to them (along with your bound book) and let them examine it at their location. That way none of you OTHER "inventory" gets "in the way".