Hey all

[Eugene V. Debs]

Decided to introduce myself. I'm a former Philadelphia resident now living in Connecticut. CT is nearly beyond hope for serious gun-rights reform, so, since I anticipate returning to Philly in the next couple of years, I'd like to keep up on PA self-defense activism. I'd like to return to a relatively free city (though they put in the video cameras just before I left).

If anyone gets my username, you will quickly ascertain I am a leftist. A (libertarian) socialist and die-hard union member, in fact. So I won't always agree on political action with many gun-rights advocates (this is why I no longer belong to the NRA and never joined the GOA-- they're good on guns but very hostile to left-wing politics in general), nor will I agree on many other political issues I'm sure. But you can be sure I stand firmly for the right of private citizens to defend themselves with lethal force if necessary. I support "shall issue" concealed carry, oppose AWB and "one gun a month" schemes. I don't really care if manufacturers are required to provide gun locks, so long as gun owners are not required to use them.

[The Drew]

(libertarian) socialist

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but as a libertarian... I don't see how libertarian and socialist can be any farther apart...

Libertarians have faith in people...

Socialists have faith in government...

Oil and water...

Don't take that as an insult. I respect your position on guns, and what many people here and in the gun culture don't realise is that there are many pro gun leftists... It really is too bad that you all don't come out of the closet... Guns and self defense really shouldn't be a political debate.

[billamj]

Welcome to the PAFOA! We hardly ever bite. I think that you'll get along with most of us fairly well even if we don't agree politically.

[Penguini66]

since I anticipate returning to Philly in the next couple of years,

You got out, PA is a big state, why go back to Philly?

How bad is Conneticut regarding gun laws?

Welcome to the Forum.

[steve762]

Welcome to PAFOA! Does being wobbly (link here if you don't get it) affect your shooting?

[Eugene V. Debs]

(libertarian) socialist

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but as a libertarian... I don't see how libertarian and socialist can be any farther apart...

Libertarians have faith in people...

Socialists have faith in government...

Oil and water...

Don't take that as an insult. I respect your position on guns, and what many people here and in the gun culture don't realise is that there are many pro gun leftists... It really is too bad that you all don't come out of the closet... Guns and self defense really shouldn't be a political debate.

Oh boy, libertarian socialism...that's a big topic. Lemme see if I can pare it down a bit. For one thing, your dichotomy is false. Some socialists have faith in government, but many have faith in the people and do not trust the government, those are the "libertarian socialists", or, to use another term "anti-authoritarian socialists".

Libertarian socialism is a rather broad term that includes many sub-ideologies, for example:

Anarchism, Mutualism, Revolutionary Syndicalism, Anarchist Collectivism, Anarchist Communism, Council Communism, Left Communism, Parecon, Market Socialism, Democratic Socialism, post-Marxism, and others.

Not all adherents of these ideologies would label themselves "libertarian socialists", but many would. They all, for the most part, reject Leninism-- the idea of the vanguard party and/or the idea that a socialist society can be brought about through the machinery of the state. As such they are more or less anti-government, or, the term I would prefer to use is "anti-statist". Some currents advocate the complete and immediate abolition of the state, others prefer a minarchist solution (I myself have wavered between these two, and currently lean towards minarchism-- though that's more a "Big L" Libertarian term than a libertarian socialist word).

Most of these currents embrace Marx's economic theory on some level, though that varies widely. For example, Council Communists, Anarchist Communists and Left Communists stick pretty close to orthodox Marxian ideas of a gift economy, whereas Mutualists, Democratic Socialists and Market Socialists would advocate for at least some level of market trade in the economy. Many of the other ideologies I've mentioned advocate for either a "mixed system", or, in the case of parecon, an entirely new (and practical) method of structuring economic relations.

I fall into no one of these sub-ideologies, though I think they all have something to offer, that's why I use the more general term "libertarian socialist". Personally I favor a democratic, very limited and decentralized government, an economy where the basic, major industries are collectively owned and operated, the non-essential large to medium industries existing as worker collectives which compete on an open market (but a cap on capital conglomeration), and the small mom-and-pops operate almost entirely unregulated.

I believe this is the best system to ensure the maximum aggregate amount of individual liberties-- which is what I care about the most. I was once a card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party myself, so I'm pretty confident in saying that although we may reach different economic conclusions, we are starting from the same place-- a strong belief in individual liberty.

Hope that made sense. It was a bit rambling.

And no insult taken at all. You're right that guns and self-defense shouldn't be a big political debate, but sadly, basic rights and human freedoms are still up for debate in America and all over the world, not just with guns and self-defense.

[Eugene V. Debs]

Welcome to PAFOA! Does being wobbly (link here if you don't get it) affect your shooting?

Not only do I get it, but I'm a member. Maybe that's the problem-- I'm not the best shot! Of course, I am out of practice as in CT you need a permit just to take your guns to the range, and I can't be bothered to try and get one.

[Eugene V. Debs]

You got out, PA is a big state, why go back to Philly?

How bad is Conneticut regarding gun laws?

Welcome to the Forum.

I love Philly, brother, that's why.

CT's pretty bad, but not as bad as Mass (which is the worst in New England).

Though nominally a "shall issue" state, they are allowed to use subjective criteria in issuing permits, so in practice it's a "may issue" state.

And you don't just need a permit to carry a handgun, you need a permit to purchase, and to take your guns outside of your home, even locked and unloaded (unless you are moving). I do not have a permit, so my guns have been collecting dust since I moved.

Also there's an assault weapon ban here. Luckily my Mini-14 did not have a pistol grip or folding stock, so I could take it with me. However, I had to abandon my plans to buy a Romanian-model AK in PA when I found out I was getting transferred here (sucks, b/c I always wanted an AK, best assault rifle ever made IMO).

All of the major mayors here are virulently anti-gun as well-- DeStefano, Malloy, Perez, etc. All Democrats, though in this neck of the woods it wouldn't make any difference if they were Republicans.

[Jelanen]

Luckily my Mini-14 did not have a pistol grip or folding stock, so I could take it with me.

and yet, it still has the same accuracy and rate of fire....funny how that works
</beats a dead horse>
oh and
</sarcasm>

[The Drew]

Oh boy, libertarian socialism...that's a big topic. Lemme see if I can pare it down a bit. For one thing, your dichotomy is false. Some socialists have faith in government, but many have faith in the people and do not trust the government, those are the "libertarian socialists", or, to use another term "anti-authoritarian socialists".

Libertarian socialism is a rather broad term that includes many sub-ideologies, for example:

Anarchism, Mutualism, Revolutionary Syndicalism, Anarchist Collectivism, Anarchist Communism, Council Communism, Left Communism, Parecon, Market Socialism, Democratic Socialism, post-Marxism, and others.

Not all adherents of these ideologies would label themselves "libertarian socialists", but many would. They all, for the most part, reject Leninism-- the idea of the vanguard party and/or the idea that a socialist society can be brought about through the machinery of the state. As such they are more or less anti-government, or, the term I would prefer to use is "anti-statist". Some currents advocate the complete and immediate abolition of the state, others prefer a minarchist solution (I myself have wavered between these two, and currently lean towards minarchism-- though that's more a "Big L" Libertarian term than a libertarian socialist word).

Most of these currents embrace Marx's economic theory on some level, though that varies widely. For example, Council Communists, Anarchist Communists and Left Communists stick pretty close to orthodox Marxian ideas of a gift economy, whereas Mutualists, Democratic Socialists and Market Socialists would advocate for at least some level of market trade in the economy. Many of the other ideologies I've mentioned advocate for either a "mixed system", or, in the case of parecon, an entirely new (and practical) method of structuring economic relations.

I fall into no one of these sub-ideologies, though I think they all have something to offer, that's why I use the more general term "libertarian socialist". Personally I favor a democratic, very limited and decentralized government, an economy where the basic, major industries are collectively owned and operated, the non-essential large to medium industries existing as worker collectives which compete on an open market (but a cap on capital conglomeration), and the small mom-and-pops operate almost entirely unregulated.

I believe this is the best system to ensure the maximum aggregate amount of individual liberties-- which is what I care about the most. I was once a card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party myself, so I'm pretty confident in saying that although we may reach different economic conclusions, we are starting from the same place-- a strong belief in individual liberty.

Hope that made sense. It was a bit rambling.

And no insult taken at all. You're right that guns and self-defense shouldn't be a big political debate, but sadly, basic rights and human freedoms are still up for debate in America and all over the world, not just with guns and self-defense.

Not to turn this into a political discussion, but a planned economy cannot scale unless it is controlled by a somewhat powerful force. That force is government.

Even in the absence of government, a commune suffers from human nature. That human nature, mainly self interest. If a man can not profit from his hard work. The man will put the least amount of work forward possible to get by. Why should he work any more than the others who are seeing the fruits of his own labor... This in turn will eventually lead to a lowest common denominator within the commune and usually leads to it's destruction.

Even if the government is democratic, the people will always vote to enrich the majority to the detriment of the minority... It is what we see today in our bloated budgets, welfare, medicare, and pork spending... None of which is quality, because when you're spending someone else's money, there is no incentive to spend it wisely or efficiently...

Man must have incentive to work hard or be inventive... So even in the absence of government, even a good natured commune will suffer the effects of human nature.

Given all the great experiments in socialism and how terribly it fares, I cannot fathom how anyone in this day and age who is educated and willing to engage in the proper research (not just college spoonfed indoctrination) can truly be a socialist.

People will be charitable on their own. And people who don't earn their keep should'nt be allowed to burden the productive members of society by forcing their charity (i.e. taxes)