Gun crime stats question

[northernlights]

Long time no see, PAFOA!

Well anyway, I wanted to ask a question, and this kind of has to do more with international gun politics, but is also general I guess.

So I have this German friend who I talk with often, and sometimes the topic comes around to guns. He is against loosening of gun laws in Germany, which are pretty strict. I think he might support the right to keep one in the home but that's about it. He feels that Germany is already very safe and mostly free of gun- and violent crime, therefore a loosening of restrictions would ultimately only cause more crime and be a bad thing.

Obviously I think guns are an inalienable human right of self-defense, but I wonder how I should counter him on this one. I have to admit that I would feel kind of bad if Germany relaxed its gun laws and the result was a huge increase in the murder rate, but I also can't support strict gun measures either.

What say you, PAFOA?

-northernlights

[Bang]

National Socialist Party tell you anything? It is unfortunate that German citizens are socialistic by nature. The country approaches everything like the world will end if it isn't done perfectly. Want to go fishing? You will attend ecology classes first, so you can fish without harming the planet. Want to change handlebars on your motorcycle? Go ahead, but don't go anywhere until you have the change inspected and approved by the state.

[northernlights]

National Socialist Party tell you anything? It is unfortunate that German citizens are socialistic by nature. The country approaches everything like the world will end if it isn't done perfectly. Want to go fishing? You will attend ecology classes first, so you can fish without harming the planet. Want to change handlebars on your motorcycle? Go ahead, but don't go anywhere until you have the change inspected and approved by the state.

Yes but that doesn't really address the question. The "socialistic" German state could just as well have background checks and safety classes, like some states here - the issue isn't the regulations surrounding getting guns, it's just simply whether it should be possible at all for German citizens to ultimately carry a gun, the regulatory hoops they might have to jump through notwithstanding.

What I'm asking about is how to make the point that, in general, making it possible to legally carry a gun would be a good thing - not exactly HOW the process would be done.

-northernlights

[qmcorps]

The USA is a society(for the most part) that self-defense and firearms have been ingrained into our DNA since the inception of this nation. Other than the leftist-leaning/mommy's demand action/save the children/maig lemmings in this country, firearms are part of our everyday life.

Europeans do not see this as a part of their society. Without getting into the politics, this is not part of their norm. Other than the Swiss; in the last 60+ years, they seem to tolerate "shooting sports". Europeans do not embrace it as part of normal life.

You can't use your thought process to support the argument. You have to get into your friends thought process regarding firearms. Then frame the argument(discussion).

[olderguy]

Guess they are too stoned to care:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-drug-offences

But their gun violence is not that minimal either.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/...many/cri-crime

[Metz]

Ok. The common international statistics focuses only on murders, and the US kind of lose there. BUT! If you'll take in account the gang shootings, that contain, like what, 80-ish percent of all homicides, the remaining 20-ish will be less that in Germany per capita, and still extremely rare occurence.

What no one wants you to know is statistics by other, waaay more common crimes. I'll tag the line with the link to the corresponding nationmaster link:

Assaults - US:786K vs. DE: 619K
Burglaries - USL 714K vs. DE: 631K

US is a little higher in absolute numbers, but given the 3.5 times difference in population, crime rate per capita in germany is 3 times higher than in the states.

[Shisno]

It's not just the violent crime perpetuated with a gun that one must look at, but all violent crime. Take the US and the UK for instance. They have very strict gun control and very low murder with guns and other crimes with guns involved. That would seem all well and good but that is only half of the picture. You need to compare their violent crime rate against ours, it's about 3 times more per capita. Are they really that safe then? If you count getting only getting shot to death as dangerous, then they are pretty safe. But if you don't like getting attacked with kitchen knives, and baseball bats, and not being able to defend yourself in your own fucking home, I suggest you stay in the nice gun infested US of A

[Pilot321]

Tell him he is better off without a gun, and so are his neighbors. That way, when the criminals come with guns that they acquired illegally, he can discuss their feelings, how society wronged them, and maybe, just maybe get killed quickly.

[Deleted]

The USA is a society(for the most part) that self-defense and firearms have been ingrained into our DNA since the inception of this nation. Other than the leftist-leaning/mommy's demand action/save the children/maig lemmings in this country, firearms are part of our everyday life.

Europeans do not see this as a part of their society. Without getting into the politics, this is not part of their norm. Other than the Swiss; in the last 60+ years, they seem to tolerate "shooting sports". Europeans do not embrace it as part of normal life.

You can't use your thought process to support the argument. You have to get into your friends thought process regarding firearms. Then frame the argument(discussion).

I think this is the best answer so far. You can not compare the US to Germany or anyone else...we are just....different. We ARE the culture of the gun.

[TaePo]

Freakonomics was on TV lately, but can't recall the channel.

They discussed how Japan places importance of solving crimes % wise for their officers and districts. They then mentioned that unsolvable homicides as one example might get labeled as an abandoned body instead in order to keep their resolution rates high so society can feel safe that the police are doing their duty. There were some other examples that would tend to make one doubt their 90% + success rate in solving crimes and further, what their actual homicide rate is. To them, this is a win-win for the police and society overall. Scaring people (even with the truth) accomplishes nothing. So it becomes acceptable.

For the above reasons, it becomes very difficult to do comparisons cross culturally. A country based on liberty/freedom; honesty in government, society and media (well, for the most part this is sliding); required due process to protect individual rights etc. is going to experience more friction and require more time to resolve issues. People will take advantage of those freedoms (movement, security of person etc.) but most understand the importance of the unwritten rules of not violating the trust or other people's rights. We rely on those individuals and not the government so much. Thus, it becomes important to retain all manner of ability for self-defense.