What defines OC vs CC?

[imp81318]

I am considering starting to carry, and I was wondering what the definition of OC is. I have been told by people very familiar with firearms that do CC that there is alot of discretion for LEO's to determine what constitutes OC or CC. As he put it, it could be considered CC if the gun was laying on the seat of your car because the windshield is "covering" or "concealing" it. Now, I learned from the flyer that you can be cited for transporting in that manner, but not for the reason he suggested, and not if you have your LTCF, obviously (which I got a few years ago).

This isn't really an issue for me since I have my LTCF, but what would really be considered OC? Does a certain percentage of the gun have to be exposed at all times? Typically, if wearing a jacket, I would think it would be mostly concealed, but "poking out" now and then, but what if it were positioned such that it were mostly exposed, but occassionally the jacket would cover it? Could the holster be interpreted as "concealing" the gun?

Thanks in advance guys!

[larry0071]

I have wondered about the definition as well.

I ask because of the right to OC and the fact that you may wear coats/jackets while doing it.

What if you DO NOT have a lic to carry concealed and you have it on your hip in a paddle holster and on the outside of your dockers or jeans, but you put on a jacket, flanel coat or wind breaker?

Do you have to tuck the cold weather garmet behind the pistol to keep it clearly exposed being that you do NOT have a LTCF?

I'm interested in hearing replies to his scenario as well as mine.

[edstephan]

I have wondered about the definition as well.

I ask because of the right to OC and the fact that you may wear coats/jackets while doing it.

What if you DO NOT have a lic to carry concealed and you have it on your hip in a paddle holster and on the outside of your dockers or jeans, but you put on a jacket, flanel coat or wind breaker?
Do you have to tuck the cold weather garmet behind the pistol to keep it clearly exposed being that you do NOT have a LTCF?

I'm interested in hearing replies to his scenario as well as mine.

If your firearm is even partially covered you can count on a problem if you run into a LEO that wants to see your LTCF.
Also any carry in any vehicle is considered concealed


An OC Activist
Ed

[larry0071]

If your firearm is even partially covered you can count on a problem if you run into a LEO that wants to see your LTCF.
Also any carry in any vehicle is considered concealed


An OC Activist
Ed

So you can legally OC so long as you do not use a car/truck to travel or wear a coat! Nice.

Basicly, you can't open cary without breaking laws. You can if you take a walk from your house in a T-shirt.

[knight0334]

I dont see whats so hard to understand about the definitions of concealed and open. Just open a dictionary and you'll get 90% of the meaning, logic and common sense with get you the other 10%.


While there is no coded or case law on the subject here in PA, however nearly all other states and US circuit courts have ruled that "open" is "not hidden, it is easily recognizable as a firearm, it is in plain view". You could bet your nuts that our court would rule the same way instead of making waves.

The holster would only be considered "concealed" if it disguised the appearance or hid the firearm enough for a common observer to not recognize it as a firearm. For example the NAA Wallet Holster. It changes the appearance of the pistol, while allowing it to function as a firearm. It would be concealed, and it would make the gun a NFA device AOW.

So long as when I look at you, I can see what appears to be a gun, or a portion that common person can recognize as a gun, the handle of a gun, etc - it is open. You cannot, in any means: conceal, disguise its appearance, hide, or alter it so that some lay person or common individual cant see it or recognize it. However, if you have a LTCF or reciprocal license - it is rather moot.

If you are openly carrying without a license - even you you conceal it for a fraction of a second, you are in violation.

As for in a car: concealed and open mean jack shit in PA.. Just merely having it INSIDE the car requires a license. Concealed, on your dash, on your seat, in the trunk, wearing its trigger guard as a c0ckring under a drag queen outfit, or whatever - you need a license. The fact that it is concealed or open has no bearing. In a vehicle ISN'T concealed, it is specifically prohibited as an act. Open or Concealed means nothing in a car, just the presence within a car is banned.

[shefearsnothing]

just the presence within a car is banned.

...without your LTCF

If your firearm is even partially covered you can count on a problem if you run into a LEO that wants to see your LTCF.

Hell! You can have it wide out in the open and STILL have an officer ask to see your LTCF!!! He has no real reason to be asking if you're just minding your own business of course but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just saying...

[imp81318]

Thanks for the input guys.

knight, that is how I would interpret the difference between OC vs CC as well, my question was how the laws are defined/written and whether there is any kind of gray area. I always would have thought that having it plain sight, in a holster, would and should be considered OC, but what this other guy told me was that it depended on the officer, and they could consider a holster as CC since it is covering the gun.

And I know how the laws work surrounding vehicles, which is why I got a LTCF as soon as I got my .357 even before I owned a holster for it.

[imp81318]

If your firearm is even partially covered you can count on a problem if you run into a LEO that wants to see your LTCF.
Also any carry in any vehicle is considered concealed


An OC Activist
Ed

Ed, would carrying it in a holster on the outer-most layer of clothing (i.e. not covered by a jacket or anything) fit into the bolded portion of your post above? That is what I'm getting at: a partially covered handgun doesn't classify as OC, but does a holster constitute "partially covered"?

[knight0334]

Thanks for the input guys.

knight, that is how I would interpret the difference between OC vs CC as well, my question was how the laws are defined/written and whether there is any kind of gray area. I always would have thought that having it plain sight, in a holster, would and should be considered OC, but what this other guy told me was that it depended on the officer, and they could consider a holster as CC since it is covering the gun.

And I know how the laws work surrounding vehicles, which is why I got a LTCF as soon as I got my .357 even before I owned a holster for it.

Here is a simple question to ask yourself, or even the LEO- "Would it be better to carry it in my hands or in a holster?" The courts already ruled OC is legal. How else would one carry responsibly, but in a holster? ...Ask that to the judge. I'll bet you a bag of donuts most will throw it out right there. An exposed grip is enough for any idiot or retard to figure out its a gun, thus voiding "concealment" and "disguise".


There are some holsters that would indeed conceal, but the opinion of an officer saying that just because it's in a holster makes it concealed is nonsense.. He's likely to end up with a conviction himself and loss of his properties in a civil suit to you.

[tl_3237]

Ed, would carrying it in a holster on the outer-most layer of clothing (i.e. not covered by a jacket or anything) fit into the bolded portion of your post above? That is what I'm getting at: a partially covered handgun doesn't classify as OC, but does a holster constitute "partially covered"?

Basically knight gave an operable definition: "not hidden, it is easily recognizable as a firearm, it is in plain view".

I would further define OC as the "gun's presence being ascertainable by a reasonably observant person." In the final LEGAL analysis, its immaterial what an LEO considers as the definition. Yes, I know that they can jam you up even if they are wrong (happens every day) but that doesn't affect the LEGAL determination.

A partially covered handgun means a partially exposed handgun. If its exposed to the extent that it recognizable by a reasonable obervant person then its OC IMO.