Can you trade handguns with LTCF holders without an FFL transfer?

**MuzzleFlash** · April 14th, 2011, 02:40 PM

It's my understanding that LTCF holders can loan handguns between each other. Let's say there are two friends in PA with LTCFs that trade guns of equal value for a week to see how they like the other person's gun before buying one or trading in their own. After a week they both decide they like the new gun and agree to keep borrowing/loaning the guns indefinitely. Eventually they agree to assume ownership of the gun they currently have and are no longer bound to hold on to it if they don't want to. Now one of the friends goes to the gun store and attempts to sell the handgun. What happens next?

The documentation for the handgun is still in the other friend's name. Would that come back to bite the current possessor and prevent him from being able to sell it?
Was it illegal to agree on a transfer of ownership without an FFL to transfer the documentation?
Is an indefinite trade where both LTCFs retain ownership of the other's current gun legal?

Here's the kicker, the friends are related in a round-about way. So if none of that works, they gift the guns to their immediate family, who in turn do the same, until eventually the same scenario is reached with someone trying to sell a handgun in another owner's name.

I understand there are issues with this buddy system, the documented owner could report the serial number stolen and deny any verbal agreement. What I'm trying to figure out is the apparent silliness of the requirement to transfer handguns at an FFL if you can legally borrow them indefinitely. I'm looking for that magic line where a transfer becomes illegal.

**Deadpan** · April 14th, 2011, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by MuzzleFlash

It's my understanding that LTCF holders can loan handguns between each other. Let's say there are two friends in PA with LTCFs that trade guns of equal value for a week to see how they like the other person's gun before buying one or trading in their own. After a week they both decide they like the new gun and agree to keep borrowing/loaning the guns indefinitely. Eventually they agree to assume ownership of the gun they currently have and are no longer bound to hold on to it if they don't want to. Now one of the friends goes to the gun store and attempts to sell the handgun. What happens next?

...

The law allows loans (temporary changes of possession) between LTCF holders, but requires an FFL or cooperative sheriff for transfers of ownership. The scheme that you are proposing would be illegal, and I believe could result in M2 charges. If you want to keep the guns after a short loan for evaluation, transfer them at an FFL. My personal (unqualified) opinion is that a court is unlikely to buy a "permanent loan" defense to such charges. The "magical line" most likely occurs where the court system finds that the exchange is no longer a loan.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6111: Sale or transfer of firearms

18 Pa.C.S. § 6115: Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited

**thebearpack** · April 14th, 2011, 03:30 PM

The handgun transfer requirement in PA may be bull (IS bull, IMO) but it's still the law and your theoretical workaround seems like a lot of hassle to save $40 in total transfer fees. The legal fees spent trying to argue the "permanent loan" angle would far outweigh the transfer.

**DonM55** · April 14th, 2011, 03:49 PM

The biggest problem would come if one of you tried to sell the handgun in the future. The person selling the gun would not match the existing sales data base as the owner of the gun.

**gnbrotz** · April 14th, 2011, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by MuzzleFlash

Eventually they agree to assume ownership of the gun they currently have and are no longer bound to hold on to it if they don't want to.

At this point, they each (as 'givers') have violated the law by not completing the legally required transfer. I've also seen GunLawyer mention that conspiracy charges could possibly come into play for the receiving party. I think the scenario you lay out would be a really good one for a prosecutor who was looking to take a run at such additional charges.

**Xringshooter** · April 14th, 2011, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by DonM55

The biggest problem would come if one of you tried to sell the handgun in the future. The person selling the gun would not match the existing sales data base as the owner of the gun.

Really wouldn't matter, when a gun is sold, there are no checks to see who the current owner is. During a sale/transfer the only thing that is checked is the person who is buying the gun to insure they are not prohibited. Once the sale/transfer is completed the new owner will show up in the sales database.

**MuzzleFlash** · April 14th, 2011, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by gnbrotz

At this point, they each (as 'givers') have violated the law by not completing the legally required transfer. I've also seen GunLawyer mention that conspiracy charges could possibly come into play for the receiving party. I think the scenario you lay out would be a really good one for a prosecutor who was looking to take a run at such additional charges.

So the magic line is in the length of time that a gun is borrowed based on the whim of a judge. No, I'm not trying to cheat the system or save $40, I find 'loopholes' amusing. "Oh sure you can trade or loan guns to LTCF holders, and there's no set time limit either.. BUT DON'T LET THEM OWN IT WITHOUT A TRANSFER!"

The reason I'm interested is because it sounds like thought crime, the difference between legal and illegal is dependant on whether or not the owner considers himself the owner.

**gnbrotz** · April 15th, 2011, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by MuzzleFlash

So the magic line is in the length of time that a gun is borrowed based on the whim of a judge.

No. The line is drawn by the intent of the participants. When they decide to exchange ownership rights, they step outside the provisions of the law.