Scoped rifle in 7.62 nato?

[Kb! Bob]

I have a CETME that, contrary to most peoples experience, has been nothing but reliable and is a more than battle accurate rifle (4"-6" @100 with open sights). So far I have used only WWB 7.62 ammo, as it is NATO spec brass. I am looking for a nice scoped rifle to get a little more accuracy at long ranges, but I would love it if I could find one chambered for both 7.62 nato and .308 so I could plink with the WWB I already have. Any suggestions on a nice but afforable model I should look at?? Thanks!

[mojo]

Here a few (disclaimer, not sure if they are chambered to handle both) to look into. Plus, not sure what your price limit is.

AR-10
Saiga
Russian SVD or Chicom NDM

Not sure if the FAL or ptr91 would be more accurate or not.

[Legionnaire]

Tagging this thread to see what others say. But it's my impression that any dimensional differences between the 7.62 NATO and .308 Win cases are minimal, and that factory .308 cartridges are loaded to higher pressures than NATO rounds (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). My approach would simply be to pick up an accurate .308 rifle and shoot your less expensive 7.62 through it. Only potential problem I see is if you are reloading your brass and trying to use the same brass in both guns. Could be a problem if the chambers are not identical.

If you're looking for a new gun, probably best "bang for the buck" in terms of out-of-the-box accuracy would be a Savage (that from a Remington fan).

[Kb! Bob]

Here a few (disclaimer, not sure if they are chambered to handle both) to look into. Plus, not sure what your price limit is.

AR-10
Saiga
Russian SVD or Chicom NDM

Not sure if the FAL or ptr91 would be more accurate or not.

FWIW I think the Saiga .308 is the best value on the market. I should have put this in the original, but I am looking more for a bolt action, something to compliment the cetme with more "tack driving" accuracy (I'm not a great shot yet, so if it could shoot around 2 MOA to start with that would be fine).

Tagging this thread to see what others say. But it's my impression that any dimensional differences between the 7.62 NATO and .308 Win cases are minimal, and that factory .308 cartridges are loaded to higher pressures than NATO rounds (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). My approach would simply be to pick up an accurate .308 rifle and shoot your less expensive 7.62 through it. Only potential problem I see is if you are reloading your brass and trying to use the same brass in both guns. Could be a problem if the chambers are not identical.

If you're looking for a new gun, probably best "bang for the buck" in terms of out-of-the-box accuracy would be a Savage (that from a Remington fan).

That may be correct, actually I hope it is. I know their is some discrepensy on this similar to the .223/5.56 chamberings. It would be ideal if the rifle could shoot both so I could practice with bulk ammo and use high dollar .308 like Hornady TAP or similar if I ever decided to do a competiton. Hopefully someone will come along to shed some light on this. Thanks for your responses!

[mojo]

FWIW I think the Saiga .308 is the best value on the market. I should have put this in the original, but I am looking more for a bolt action, something to compliment the cetme with more "tack driving" accuracy (I'm not a great shot yet, so if it could shoot around 2 MOA to start with that would be fine).

Thought you were looking for a battle rifle for some reason. Can't help on the bolts. There are a ton of good bolts that shoot .308 but I have no idea if they can shoot 7.62 nato round.

Maybe Arrrgh or Tomcat can chime in, or some else.

[Tomcat088]

Thought you were looking for a battle rifle for some reason. Can't help on the bolts. There are a ton of good bolts that shoot .308 but I have no idea if they can shoot 7.62 nato round.

Maybe Arrrgh or Tomcat can chime in, or some else.

Here I do appear, lol. I will start off by saying that I am NOT a .308 shooter, so I have not personally experienced this phenomenon. Those who have been me post before know that I do NOT like the .308 for my shooting purposes, although I recognize it works very well for other people's. Either way, just because I haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that I don't know, or that it's not real.

This comes directly from 6mmBR.com, and I assure you, these gentlemen know their cartridges backwards and forwards. Here's the original link http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html and here's the part you were looking for.

308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone's 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell's .308 vs 7.62x51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

In case you were too lazy to read through that, or didn't quite understand it, I'll simplify it slightly. Basically it is safe to shoot 7.62 NATO in your .308 rifle, but it may not be safe to shoot .308 in your military rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO. There are many times that you can get away with it, and it all depends on how the chamber measures in terms of headspacing, but it's probably not something you should do to be on the safe side. Legionnaire was correct in his post that there are chamber differences and that the .308 is loaded to higher pressures.

I do want to mention one thing to the OP, and that is thing. If you really want a "tack driver", you're not going to get it from military surplus ammo, or cheap ammo. It doesn't matter how accurate the rifle is capable of shooting, if you put inconsistent garbage in it for ammunition, it won't shoot even close to it's potential. Since you were talking about requirements of 2 moa, you MAY be able to get that out of your "precision rifle" shooting military ammo, but it should be capable of much better accuracy with better ammo and a competent shooter. I'm not trying to break your balls or tell you that you have to shoot expensive ammo through your precision rifle, I'm just saying that you can't expect a whole lot from military surplus ammo. Precision rifles cost a great deal of money, as does the ammunition that they need. In military surplus ammo, there may be as much as 1 or 2 grains difference (sometimes more) from one bullet to the next. In my personal reloads for my precision rifle, there is no more than +/- .1 grain difference; in many match loads it'll be closer to +/- .2 grains. Either way, it's a FAR cry from military surplus ammo, and I want you to be aware of that.

With all that being said, there are tons of great bolt action rifles made by all the major manufacturers. It would help to know what you had in mind in terms of weight requirements, possibly a barrel length, wood or synthetic stocks, heavy barreled or not, budget, etc, etc, etc. Remington, Savage, Browning, Ruger, Tikka, Sako, and MANY others make rifles that fit your accuracy requirements and that are chambered in .308. If we have a bit more information, especially budget, that would greatly help us recommend the rifle that might fit your needs best.

[Kb! Bob]

Here I do appear, lol. I will start off by saying that I am NOT a .308 shooter, so I have not personally experienced this phenomenon. Those who have been me post before know that I do NOT like the .308 for my shooting purposes, although I recognize it works very well for other people's. Either way, just because I haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that I don't know, or that it's not real.

This comes directly from 6mmBR.com, and I assure you, these gentlemen know their cartridges backwards and forwards. Here's the original link http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html and here's the part you were looking for.

308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone's 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell's .308 vs 7.62x51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

In case you were too lazy to read through that, or didn't quite understand it, I'll simplify it slightly. Basically it is safe to shoot 7.62 NATO in your .308 rifle, but it may not be safe to shoot .308 in your military rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO. There are many times that you can get away with it, and it all depends on how the chamber measures in terms of headspacing, but it's probably not something you should do to be on the safe side. Legionnaire was correct in his post that there are chamber differences and that the .308 is loaded to higher pressures.

I do want to mention one thing to the OP, and that is thing. If you really want a "tack driver", you're not going to get it from military surplus ammo, or cheap ammo. It doesn't matter how accurate the rifle is capable of shooting, if you put inconsistent garbage in it for ammunition, it won't shoot even close to it's potential. Since you were talking about requirements of 2 moa, you MAY be able to get that out of your "precision rifle" shooting military ammo, but it should be capable of much better accuracy with better ammo and a competent shooter. I'm not trying to break your balls or tell you that you have to shoot expensive ammo through your precision rifle, I'm just saying that you can't expect a whole lot from military surplus ammo. Precision rifles cost a great deal of money, as does the ammunition that they need. In military surplus ammo, there may be as much as 1 or 2 grains difference (sometimes more) from one bullet to the next. In my personal reloads for my precision rifle, there is no more than +/- .1 grain difference; in many match loads it'll be closer to +/- .2 grains. Either way, it's a FAR cry from military surplus ammo, and I want you to be aware of that.

With all that being said, there are tons of great bolt action rifles made by all the major manufacturers. It would help to know what you had in mind in terms of weight requirements, possibly a barrel length, wood or synthetic stocks, heavy barreled or not, budget, etc, etc, etc. Remington, Savage, Browning, Ruger, Tikka, Sako, and MANY others make rifles that fit your accuracy requirements and that are chambered in .308. If we have a bit more information, especially budget, that would greatly help us recommend the rifle that might fit your needs best.

Holy shit in a handbasket, I may already be in over my head!!! Haha, thanks for the info. The first hurdle is met just knowing that I should be looking at .308 chambered rifles, then I can use the 7.62 if I so choose. So I now gather that my definition of 'tack driver' is a lot diffrent than yours!! Let me put it this way; this will be my very first scoped rifle. Currently, I go to the range and shoot my AK and CETME at 50 and 100 yards with open sights, with I would say decent success given the gun and my skill level. Obviously, at 100 yards, and 50 for that matter, I shoot COM and am happy with a hit, which I only see through the binocs. What I am looking for is just a little more in the way of consistent accuracy. Something I could, with a little practice, hit COM with everytime at 200 yards or so. I think this would be a blast at the range and come in handy if, God forbid, SHTF. I would use the 7.62 much the same as I use .22lr (practice, breath-control, trigger control etc) because I have a couple thousand rounds of it, but would certainly stock good .308 as well to see what kind of accuracy is possible. As for budget, I'm not really sure where to start. It would be easiest if I could buy the rifle with the optic already mounted, I don't expect I would need much better glass than they offer to accomplish my goal. If the rifle is $400-$500 I might go get one this weekend, if its more I can start saving my nickels now. I'm just not sure where to start and don't want to go spending big money on something if its not what I really need. Thanks!!

[mojo]

From what your goals are, any of the manufactures that TC suggested

Remington, Savage, Browning, Ruger, Tikka, Sako

will get the job done. Although, I don't know if Sako makes one in that price range. Never really checked them out.

Most well built AKs can hit COM at 200yrds, with a Red Dot. So you don't need a "high" end rifle for that. Start checking out the manufactures above, I really don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Find a few that you like and post them here. You will definitely get everyone's opinion about them.

[Legionnaire]

Legionnaire was correct in his post that there are chamber differences and that the .308 is loaded to higher pressures.

Ha! I was right (for once)!

Since you were talking about requirements of 2 moa, you MAY be able to get that out of your "precision rifle" shooting military ammo, but it should be capable of much better accuracy with better ammo and a competent shooter.

Yup. I suspect that a good Savage (or Remington, or Browning ... etc.) should be able to shoot 1 MOA or close to it (possibly better) out of the box with match grade ammo. I suggest that whatever you do, shoot some 100 yard, 5-shot groups with good ammo and good technique to determine the accuracy potential of your bolt action rifle. You'll then have a good idea of what accuracy you're giving up when you shoot cheap (less expensive, at least) surplus stuff.