Gun transfers between brothers?

[itsmyright]

A couple of years ago I purchased a S&W .357 and a Remington 1187 12 GA. from my brother. We went to John Lock's Gun Exchange in Philly to have them transferred and he said that it was not required because the transfer is between brother and brother. The law is as follows:
(c) Duty of other persons.-Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sher*iff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

Am I missing something here, because the law and what I was told by the gun shop seam to contradict each other.

[knight0334]

The gunshop is wrong.

For "firearms"(handguns, SBS, SBR) you must transfer them at a FFL or sheriff. The long gun requires no paperwork and is not considered a "firearm" under PA, except for those that are prohibited.


You can just hand over the shotgun. The handgun needs the PA State Police form filled out.

[s.vermeire]

A couple of years ago I purchased a S&W .357 and a Remington 1187 12 GA. from my brother. We went to John Lock's Gun Exchange in Philly to have them transferred and he said that it was not required because the transfer is between brother and brother. The law is as follows:
(c) Duty of other persons.-Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sher*iff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

Am I missing something here, because the law and what I was told by the gun shop seam to contradict each other.

Technically what you were told by the dealer is incorrect. However your brother could certainly 'sell' (or give) the guns to one of your parents (assuming they are still living) and then said parent could 'sell' the guns to you. As long as you are not prohibited, law enforcement would have a hard time establishing any sort of case on inter familial transfers.

I am not a lawyer and this is just my opinion and not legal advice. Others will be along to chime in soon I'm sure.

Edit: Didn't pay close enough attention to the guns in question. My above reply would only be applicable to the .357.

[vrocco]

So if I were to buy a stripped lower in my name, and build it into a complete AR-15, I could then give that to my wife with no transfer?

Did I understand that correctly?

[w1cked]

I was under the impression there was no legal registration of firearms in PA...?

[PisnNapalm]

So if I were to buy a stripped lower in my name, and build it into a complete AR-15, I could then give that to my wife with no transfer?

Did I understand that correctly?

Yes. You could also buy a handgun and give it to your wife.

[PisnNapalm]

I was under the impression there was no legal registration of firearms in PA...?

Correct. It's against the law for the government to maintain a registry of firearms.

§6111.4. Registration of Firearms.

Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any govern*ment or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term “firearm” shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. (Added by L 1995. Spec. Sess 1, Act 17(6,), eff 10/11/95.)

[ChamberedRound]

OK people, I understand the PA UFA is pretty heavy reading, but all in all the rules for transferring firearms is pretty simple. This has been discussed a number of times on the site, and some searching will yield more detailed answers for more specific circumstances, but I'll boil down the basics here.

BEFORE I BEGIN, LET'S MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT THE TEXT WHICH FOLLOWS IS A PERSONAL OPINION AND SHOULD NOT IN ANY WAY BE INTERPRETED AS LEGAL ADVICE.

- Any long gun, as long as it's not regulated by federal law, can be transferred from any one person to any other person WITHOUT a dealer/FFL, just as you would conduct any other form of business.

Wanna sell a shotgun to your friend without an FFL?
No problem.

Wanna gift an AR-15 to your 2nd cousin without an FFL?
You're good.

Wanna sell your pistol to your brother without an FFL?
WRONG! You need an FFL for that one.

Wanna sell that full-auto Thompson to anyone?
WRONG! You need an FFL for that one, along with a bunch of other federal paperwork. And, if you didn't already know that, then you probably don't possess that Thompson legally as it is

- Anything described as a "firearm" in the UFA, which basically means all handguns, MUST BE TRANSFERRED by an FFL. It also covers short-barrel rifles and shotguns, but they're already regulated under federal law anyway. The only exception to the FFL requirement for the transfer of "firearms" are transfers between spouses, parent-child, and grandparent-grandchild. Note that these exceptions do not include siblings; that requires an FFL.

Here's the relevant excerpts of the UFA that describe these rules. See my notes in the quote as well:

§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.
.
.
.

ChamberedRound: This first part (§ 6111.c) is a blanket statement that basically says all firearm transfers must be done by a dealer, and lists the exceptions for certain family members.

(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed
importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or
transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only
upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer,
dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall
follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the
seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not
apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a
parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and
grandchild.
.
.
.

ChamberedRound: Now that the above has laid out the basic rules for transfer, the definition of "firearm" is described here, and lists the exceptions to the definition. This is basically the part that says long guns (and a few other types) can be transferred without an FFL.

(e) Nonapplicability of section.--This section shall not
apply to the following:
(1) Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.
(2) Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or
percussion cap type of ignition system.
(3) Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph
(1) if the replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or
conventional center fire fixed ammunition; or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United
States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.

(f) Application of section.--
(1) For the purposes of this section only, except as
provided by paragraph (2), "firearm" shall mean any weapon
which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any
projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or
receiver of any such weapon.
(2) The provisions contained in subsections (a) and (c)
shall only apply to pistols or revolvers with a barrel length
of less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length of
less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel length of less
than 16 inches or any firearm with an overall length of less
than 26 inches.

I hope this quick primer helps you guys out.

[1blindref]

s.vermeire wrote:

However your brother could certainly 'sell' (or give) the guns to one of your parents (assuming they are still living) and then said parent could 'sell' the guns to you.

Why wouldn't this be legal?

I have two sons, both over 18.
I have purchased 4 guns (1 rifle and 3 handguns) and given them to my sons as gifts.

I have also purchased a handgun from my older son.

Wouldn't I be allowed to gift that handgun to my younger son??

[Feddog82]

s.vermeire wrote:


Why wouldn't this be legal?

I have two sons, both over 18.
I have purchased 4 guns (1 rifle and 3 handguns) and given them to my sons as gifts.

I have also purchased a handgun from my older son.

Wouldn't I be allowed to gift that handgun to my younger son??

This is technically legal but can be a real mother to explain, prove, and support in court if anything may put you in that situation.

You being in the right depends on how the court determines the law at any given time.