What makes a good, competitive gun store?

[NineseveN]

What makes a good, competitive gun store?


There’s a thread on this site about a certain gun shop/range where the discussion kinda deviated from the original intent into a discussion on WalMart VS mom and pop type shops. A lot of folks like to demonize WalMart because they undercut the competition on price and that somehow this puts good local shops out of business.

I disagree, I think there’s a lot of generalization going on where any mom and pop shop is championed as a good shop simply because they’re not WalMart; this is almost regardless of the actual level of service, selection and prices.

So I wanted to get a discussion going on what makes a good gun shop. Simply answering that they’re not WalMart won’t suffice. The way I see it, it breaks down like this:

WalMart has mostly good to great prices, zero service but a rather small selection in guns and ammo. In order for a local shop to compete, they’re going to have to do something leaps and bounds better than WalMart to offset the ridiculously low prices there. Such a shop might strive for excellent customer service where no matter who walks in the door, they feel like a long-time patron who’s appreciated and shown respect. Another shop might throw in a free box of ammo with any firearm purchase. Another shop may advertise low transfer fees and the ability to get whatever you want and get it to you with a smile. Another shop may have knowledgeable clerks running the counters instead of the garden variety idiot know-nothings sometimes found at larger chain stores.

The point is, they have to do something to draw customers to them, not being WalMart is not (and should not be) enough. I see some shops doing this, but others seem to be just barely kept alive merely by people that won’t shop at the evil big corporation. These shops justify ridiculous polices and prices by saying they have to charge $24 for a 100-round value pack of Winchester White Box to offset the loss of business in customers going to WalMart to get that same ammo for $4-$6 less. Some of these shops size you up when you walk in the door and if you don’t look like money (or a hunter/sportsman), it’ll be a cold day in hell before they greet you warmly with a smile and a “how can I help you”. Some shops employ counter-commandoes, who’s lack of knowledge about all things firearms is rivaled only by the ferociousness of their opinion that all guns except the Glocks they have a case full of suck (or are overpriced, or jam, made by communists or some foreign people etc…). Some of these shops won’t do transfers, if you want a gun, buy what they have or will get in and that’s it. Some of these shops won’t stock EBR’s and want you to pay a premium transfer fee just to get in one of those ‘useless rifles you can’t hunt with’.

In my opinion, there’s a reason why these shops can’t be competitive, and it has nothing to do with WalMart. I see some mom and pop shops that are always packed with happy customers. These shops are usually friendly, welcoming, well-lit, short on pushy sales people that deride you for your choice in arms and they’ll do a transfer on any legal weapon for a reasonable fee. Sure, most all of them could do better, and likely if they did, they’d have even more customers that they presently do, but the point is, they get it. They’re a business, and they have to find a way to compete with the price-slashing giants…they do this with individual service that makes a person feel good when they’re there, so good that they want to come back again and again and also tell their friends about their new favorite gun dealer. They do this by walking a fine line between doing what they must to turn a profit and doing stupid things that hurt their customer in the name of ‘policy” or what “they have to do to compete with WalMart”.

Does anyone have any examples or any thoughts on this?

[bubba23]

A good selection.

[bubba23]

And friendly knowledgeable service.

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Just some random thoughts....

What makes a good, competitive gun store?
Some of these shops size you up when you walk in the door and if you don’t look like money (or a hunter/sportsman), it’ll be a cold day in hell before they greet you warmly with a smile and a “ho can I help you”.

I agree with this completely. I went to a gun store to my apartment when I was looking to buy a few months ago. There were three guys at the counter, two of whom were talking to some other patron. Third guy was just standing there. Nothing I did, from trying to make eye contact, to even saying, "Hello," seemed to get their attention. I finally got a chance to ask some questions and look at a few pistols, but even so, the guy who was "helping" me acted like I was bothering him the whole time. I took my money elsewhere.

Personally, I will buy from just about anyone who offers me what I want at the lowest price (combined with other factors, like ease of getting to the store -- I'll pay a little more to avoid driving, say, more than 30 minutes -- or knowledge that they will work with you if there's a problem.)

Although I don't shop at Wal-Mart often, it's not because I think they're 'evil'. If you ever read Milton & Rose Friedman's Free to Choose, they mention that the great innovation that big retailers bring to consumers is that they serve the role of quality assurance for consumers. Since they usually stand behind their products with generous return policies, consumers generally get better quality goods from big retailers than small ones. I don't go to Wal-Mart because I've found that they don't perform that 'quality screening' role very well -- turns out you do get what you pay for from Wal-Mart a lot of times....

I found a "counter commando" at a big box sporting goods retailer. Even though I went there specifically looking for a small semi-automatic, the guy kept pushing me toward a revolver. What I needed was a 642, yes sir. Especially with the Crimson Trace lasers -- there, isn't that neat? All semi-automatics do is jam. You have to carry semi-automatics cocked & locked -- and that just feels dangerous. Etc.

I also didn't buy from them.

[NineseveN]

Why Your Gun Dealer Hates Remington

I've seen several threads on various gun forums by customers who are upset that a dealer badmouthed the Remington brand. I didn't think much of this until I had a long talk with a local gun dealer the other day and the topic of Walmart and Remington surfaced.

He said that a firearm industry sales report for 2006 showed that 27% of all Remington firearms are sold by Walmart. That is a huge market share, especially when you consider some Walmarts don't sell guns, e.g. all of California.

To achieve those sales, Remington gives Walmart incredible proprietary pricing. In fact, my dealer said that his wholesale cost for the most popular Remington models is higher than the retail price at Walmart. He no longer stocks any new Remington firearms.

While I wouldn't think it is wise to bash a customers preferred brand, I now understand why dealesrs would be upset with the Remington brand...and Walmart.

Check WalMart's actual gun prices on Remingtons and then check online. I often use Bud's Gun Shop (www.budsgunshop.com) and right now I'm seeing that a lot of Bud's prices are lower than WalMart’s (Bud’s does a lot of volume business). I'm just not buying the "my wholesale is more than their retail" argument for a few reasons:

One: other gun shops, not near the size of WalMart in terms of sales volume, compete with WalMart's prices on Remingtons. All of these shops cannot possibly be taking losses on their guns, and Remington isn't giving them this alleged special pricing, why would they but not give them to the dealer you talked to?

Two: Most of the time that dealers bitch about so-called "Special-Pricing", what they're really bitching about is what's known as 'stocking dealer' type pricing. You see, if you stock and sell a certain amount or % of a certain company's firearms, you're dealer cost goes down (volume pricing). Tanners out in Eastern PA has the best FN prices I have ever seen, because he sells so many of them, he gets volume pricing. That's economics, that's business. he chose his niche with the FN because he saw a market need and fulfilled it, thereby increasing his profits and lowering his costs. He's selling the new FN FNP-9 handgun for $350, I paid over $470 for mine at my dealer IIRC.

One of my normal dealers is a regular stocking dealer for Springfield Armory. He gets special prices on them based on the volume that he sells. he gets to participate in sales promotions where if he sells 8 or 10 certain handguns, he gets one handgun (or a rifle) free. That's because he sells the SA products hardcore.

If a manufacturer offers this kind of pricing, it's offered to anyone (plenty of kitchen table dealers have used SA's "buy X guns, get X model free" to get themselves a free rifle and increase their overall profits) that sells a certain volume or meets a certain criteria/agreement. That simple economics, and your dealer could get substantial price breaks if he sold more of a certain model. Is it hard to compete with WalMart’s prices? Sure, but it's not impossible because plenty of dealers do on firearms. Ammo is a different story.

Now, whether or not this is Remington's volume policy or not, I don't know. I do know that WalMart does negotiate better prices for volume buys, that's just simple economics working again. I'm sure some people would rather Remington's sales be down 27% because WalMart won't carry them, well, everyone except Remington, their stockholders and those of us that still have warranties with them and like their products.

[aubie515]

Price rarely comes into play.

I disagree with this comment. Price has a lot to do with weather I will continue to shop at a store that charges more than other gun shops. I cannot speak for anyone else, but for me I buy a lot so I am always searching for the best prices. Perhaps prices doesn't affect your purchases, but to make a bold statement like that is a bit silly. I have seen prices differences of hundreds of dollars more or less for the same product. For me, that price difference would make it worth my while to do the research. Not everyone is wealthy and willing to pay top dollar for everything they purchase.

Back on topic to NS thread...I agree with you that many gun shops cannot beat WM from a price point. I would say those smaller gun shops must differeciate their gun shop by offering outstanding CS and knowledge. NS was spot on when he mentioned the lack of service and knowledge at WM and Cabela type stores. You are dealing with retail and the retail mentality. While gun shops generally hire people that actually use the products they are selling. Sure, there are some knuckleheads that can work at gun shops too, but in general I find gun shops to be more knowledgable.

I buy from WM due to the great prices on ammo and some firearms (if the WM even sells firearms anymore), but I don't expect the counter person to "help" me make any decisions. When I go into WM I already know what I"m buying before I get to the store. I don't have high expectations for the WM staff. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm merely saying that I don't expect them to be knowledgable about firearms at all. All I need them to do is unlock the glass case and hand me the rifle. I can do the rest.

[C4iGrant]

The difference between Wally World and a Mom and Pop gun shop SHOULD be the level of knowledge behind the counter. I have NEVER EVER seen a WW employee that was more knowledgeable on gear, guns and ammo than I.

The local gun shop can also special order guns for you and give you a higher level of customer service in that manner.

Where gun shops can NEVER beat WW is on the price of the FEW guns they stock or their ammo prices. WW buys in such QTY's that mom and pop's just cannot compete with it.

So what is the real issue with saving a buck or two by buying ammo and guns at WW? By giving them your business VS the small gun shop, the small gun shop may cease to exist (which is happening all across the country). If you think that is a good thing then you need to have your head examined.



C4

[C4iGrant]

Check WalMart's actual gun prices on Remingtons and then check online. I often use Bud's Gun Shop (www.budsgunshop.com) and right now I'm seeing that a lot of Bud's prices are lower than WalMart’s (Bud’s does a lot of volume business). I'm just not buying the "my wholesale is more than their retail" argument for a few reasons:

One: other gun shops, not near the size of WalMart in terms of sales volume, compete with WalMart's prices on Remingtons. All of these shops cannot possibly be taking losses on their guns, and Remington isn't giving them this alleged special pricing, why would they but not give them to the dealer you talked to?

Two: Most of the time that dealers bitch about so-called "Special-Pricing", what they're really bitching about is what's known as 'stocking dealer' type pricing. You see, if you stock and sell a certain amount or % of a certain company's firearms, you're dealer cost goes down (volume pricing). Tanners out in Eastern PA has the best FN prices I have ever seen, because he sells so many of them, he gets volume pricing. That's economics, that's business. he chose his niche with the FN because he saw a market need and fulfilled it, thereby increasing his profits and lowering his costs. He's selling the new FN FNP-9 handgun for $350, I paid over $470 for mine at my dealer IIRC.

One of my normal dealers is a regular stocking dealer for Springfield Armory. He gets special prices on them based on the volume that he sells. he gets to participate in sales promotions where if he sells 8 or 10 certain handguns, he gets one handgun (or a rifle) free. That's because he sells the SA products hardcore.

If a manufacturer offers this kind of pricing, it's offered to anyone (plenty of kitchen table dealers have used SA's "buy X guns, get X model free" to get themselves a free rifle and increase their overall profits) that sells a certain volume or meets a certain criteria/agreement. That simple economics, and your dealer could get substantial price breaks if he sold more of a certain model. Is it hard to compete with WalMart’s prices? Sure, but it's not impossible because plenty of dealers do on firearms. Ammo is a different story.

Now, whether or not this is Remington's volume policy or not, I don't know. I do know that WalMart does negotiate better prices for volume buys, that's just simple economics working again. I'm sure some people would rather Remington's sales be down 27% because WalMart won't carry them, well, everyone except Remington, their stockholders and those of us that still have warranties with them and like their products.

Several of the gun shops and or examples you listed are NOT your typical small gun shop. Buds is part of a large buying group. This allows them to get weapons much cheaper than a dealer going through a Distr. can. To get into a buying group, you have to do at least 1 Million in sales a year. Most small shops can not do this. I have gone down this road of the "buying group" and been accepted into it. Not sure if I like everything about them, but they appear to be a neccessary evil.

There is NO WAY that a small shop that is buying through a distr. can EVER match and or beat WW's prices. This is often times what they are complaining about (unfair buying capability that WW has).


C4

[NineseveN]

Several of the gun shops and or examples you listed are NOT your typical small gun shop. Buds is part of a large buying group. This allows them to get weapons much cheaper than a dealer going through a Distr. can. To get into a buying group, you have to do at least 1 Million in sales a year. Most small shops can not do this. I have gone down this road of the "buying group" and been accepted into it. Not sure if I like everything about them, but they appear to be a neccessary evil.

There is NO WAY that a small shop that is buying through a distr. can EVER match and or beat WW's prices. This is often times what they are complaining about (unfair buying capability that WW has).


C4

How is standard economics unfair? If I buy 10 widgets from you, and Aubie buys 10,000, he's going to get the better price. Now, if he wants to stay in business, he has to beat me in customer service because he can't compete in volume.

It sounds like some folks don't like the idea of a free market. You see, if you sell widgets to stores at $10 per widget, and your total manufacturing cost, including overhead is $7, you're making a profit of $30 if I buy 10. It's still a profit, but the $30 does not help increase your capital, or fund R&D and marketing to increase your market share, it's a sale, but insignificant in terms of the ability of your company to grow and prosper. Now, Aubie comes along as says he'll buy 10,000 widgets right now, but he wants them at $8.50 instead of 10 per widget. You just made $15,000, and increased the volume of products you have on the market, which increases your brand awareness and you overall viability to stockholders...who wouldn't make that deal? Not someone that's in business to compete, grow and turn a profit.

Now, sure, you could refuse to sell to Aubie and favor the mom and pop shop, but if DanP comes along and agrees to that same deal with Aubie, only supplying his comparable widget, congratulations, your company is now insignificant. Your marketing power is dwarfed by DanP's, he'll advance in business by having a better portfolio, more investment and capital, more funds for R&D and marketing and he'll be able to deliver more products at a better price point with similar quality.

Free markets and economics works, volume pricing and buying power isn't unfair, it's business, it's economics, it's the way it should be. If you can’t compete in volume, you have to find ways to compete in service.


Getting into a buying group doesn’t exactly, as I understand it, require you do 1 million (or whatever amount) in sales BEFORE you get in, I believe that’s the requirement to maintain, is it not? There are other requirements and stipulations as I understand it.

I find it difficult to believe that Bud’s did a million in sales before having such buying power as offered by the group. WalMart and buying groups eliminate the middleman (the distributor), if you can’t do that, of course you’re going to pay more for the goods to stock your store.


Regardless, I guess the point is, these dealers getting into buying groups is an answer to WalMart's volume pricing...nothing is stopping Joe's gun shop from building his own proposal to other PA gun dealers (small shops) about forming their own buying group with lower obligations. True, they might not get the bottom price due to lower volume than Bud's buying group, but they'll likely get lower prices and be able to compete a little better. Not saying that this would work, there are a lot of contractual and personality obstacles to hurdle in that type of scenario, but sometimes you have to innovate to truly compete.

Which goes back to oringinal point of the topic...if you can't compete in price, compete in service. No one's going to come along and fix prices to make the market fair to your small shop, that's not a free market.

[Brick]

What makes a gun shop good is a combination of price, service (before and after the sale) and knowledge of the subject.

The idea of service includes the dealer's willingness to special order items that are not normally part of his stock or at the very least help research items. That is the area where I find difficulty in this locale. Not long ago I was searching for Win 231 powder. None of the 3 local shops had any and none where willing to check with the distributor to see if they could get it. So I sent an order into Natchez and had it within a week. Overall it didn't cost me any more than buying through the local shop, plus it saved me travel time and gasoline.