Man Shot By Police Said He Had Gun, Never Pulled It

[larrymeyer]

http://www.nbc10.com/news/15049728/d...s=phi&psp=news

Witnesses: Man Shot By Police Said He Had Gun, Never Pulled It
NBC 10 Investigators Go To Police For Answers

POSTED: 9:52 PM EST January 14, 2008
UPDATED: 10:56 PM EST January 14, 2008

NBC 10 investigative reporter Harry Hairston got two very different accounts of what happened during a deadly shooting that involved Philadelphia police.

Two people came forward Monday saying they saw exactly what happened Friday night when police shot Trevar Cephus.

They told their story only to NBC 10.

"When the cops rolled up -- they rolled up on 24th and Clifford -- they hopped out. You know, some ran, some stood," said 25-year-old Lateef Williams.

Williams came to NBC 10's studios Monday to tell what he saw when police shot and killed his good friend, Cephus.

Police said it happened in North Philadelphia. Investigators said Cephus ran from police and then reached for a gun.

But Williams said Cephus never ran. Williams claims Cephus raised his hands, told police he had a gun but never reached for it.

"'Hands in the air. Hands in the air,'" Williams said, describing what he saw and heard. "He said, 'I have a gun. I have a gun.' The cop that was searching him announced, 'Yes, he has a gun.' The backup officer shot him. It was only one shot."

Williams said he was just a few feet away when the shooting happened.

"I was standing three bodies over, three bodies over from Trevar. ... So I can clearly see this," he said.

"They had their backs against the wall," said another man, who didn't want to be identified.

The man said he, too, clearly saw what happened: "He was standing just like this, with his hands up, and the cop fired a shot. Pow. He hit the wall and fell on his face."

The man said police then tried to get Cephus medical help.

"The one that shot him said, 'Oh (expletive). I got to get him to the hospital," the man said.

Williams said he told police they were wrong to shoot but claims police struck him with a flashlight and then arrested him.

"I have stitches. My eyes are swollen. I had to crawl up under a car hopefully praying to God that they don't kill me next,'" Williams said.

Court documents show police arrested Williams on a charge of disorderly conduct.

Hairston contacted police about what the witnesses said. Police would not go on camera again but said they are standing by their story.

Philadelphia police Lt. Frank Vanore said Saturday, "The cover officer then observed the male take a handgun from his waist band and place it down by his side. The cover officer ordered the male several times to drop the weapon. ... The male began to raise his arm, and he fired one time and struck him in the abdomen."

Police also said Monday night that the shooting is being investigated by internal affairs.

No one from internal affairs returned Hairston's call Monday.

[knight0334]

Sounds like murder to me.

I realize that sometimes lies are told to make an officer look bad, but this one of those cases where I feel for sure the cop was the bad guy.

[MarcS]

So, all you people who are in favor of informing police at traffic stops....who's with me now?

[knight0334]

So, all you people who are in favor of informing police at traffic stops....who's with me now?

Apparently not good in Philly for sure. I wouldn't be worried about it in the Alabama section of Pennsylvania.

[Longshot]

This story needs more information, why where the cops there in the first place? Most of it is irrelevent, however I would like a more clear picture of what happend, I mean why where the police on the offense to beguin with. Did these men alegidly commit some crime? Just wish there was more information to go on.

[Atomic Dog]

So, all you people who are in favor of informing police at traffic stops....who's with me now?

I'm not a young black man walking around philly, so I think I'm safe.


(And don't you even call me a racist because you know what I'm saying!)

[sinful]

So, all you people who are in favor of informing police at traffic stops....who's with me now?

When I had my Glock 26, I was stopped at a DUI checkpoint. As I approached, the officer asked for my DL, Reg, proof of insurance. I had already gathered everything and it was on the dash, but I told the officer before I took my hands off the wheel and reached for the paperwork, "I have a conceal carry permit and there is a loaded firearm in the holster on my left hip. I wanted to inform you before I reached for that paperwork and you saw it."

He thanked me for the "no surprises", glanced at my paperwork, asked a few questions, handed the paperwork back, and I was on my way.

While I certainly wasn't there for the shooting, I can surely say, in my personal opinion that shouting "i have a gun, i have a gun" isn't the way to inform an officer that you're carrying as they 'roll up' on you and your gathering. Knowing our LEOs are reactive and trained to be as such, I would have handled it very differently. I've had my share of run ins with the LEO in my area and as they 'roll up' on a gathering of people, the tension for them is already high, I'm sure. For me, I can only envision the situation playing out like this:
The cops 'roll up'
*hands in the air before being asked*
The cops get out of their vehicle, some give chase to the fleeing crowd, some stay and question those of us that didn't run.
I calmly and politely say "Officer, I have a loaded pistol on my person (explain where it is), and I have the proper permits to carry"
The cop confiscates the firearm until the situation is under control.
I'm questioned about the incident that they were called to the scene for.
If I'm innocent, my firearm is returned and I'm released.
If not, i shouldn't have been in the company of the wrong doers to begin with.

For the record, I've NEVER had a run in with a LEO that turned bad that I didn't deserve.

With that being said, I'll give my POV on the whole shooting...
If he ran, got tackled or scuffled with the police and then he decided to shout "i have a gun, i have a gun", he deserved to be shot. The officer only heard "i have a gun" as his partner scuffled with the perp.
If he stood still, shouting "i have a gun, i have a gun" isn't the way to inform an officer that you're armed while the situation is still playing out.

The covering officer did what he was trained to do, imho. He heard the perp say "I have a gun" then heard his partner say "he has a gun"... if the covering officer had hesitated and his partner had gotten shot, we'd be reading a whole different story. He REACTED to the situation at hand as he comprehended it.

[Hawk]

With that being said, I'll give my POV on the whole shooting...
If he ran, got tackled or scuffled with the police and then he decided to shout "i have a gun, i have a gun", he deserved to be shot. The officer only heard "i have a gun" as his partner scuffled with the perp.
If he stood still, shouting "i have a gun, i have a gun" isn't the way to inform an officer that you're armed while the situation is still playing out.

The covering officer did what he was trained to do, imho. He heard the perp say "I have a gun" then heard his partner say "he has a gun"... if the covering officer had hesitated and his partner had gotten shot, we'd be reading a whole different story. He REACTED to the situation at hand as he comprehended it.

Sounds reasonable. OTOH, the witness states his buddy had his hands over his head at that time and was against a wall?, and was being frisked, when the "I have a gun" was spoken twice by the suspect. If this is true then I think the police may have been wrong in their actions.

Hawk,

[sinful]

Sounds reasonable. OTOH, the witness states his buddy had his hands over his head at that time and was against a wall?, and was being frisked, when the "I have a gun" was spoken twice by the suspect. If this is true then I think the police may have been wrong in their actions.

Hawk,

As I read it, he wasn't being frisked, he had his back to the wall... facing the officers when he began saying "i have a gun". The arresting officer confirmed "he has a gun". The covering officer then shot.

//adding comments:

I think since we weren't there, none of us can really say how it should have went down, only hypothesize how we would have tried to handle it different from both sides of the situation.
I also think we allow LEOs to make these kinds of "in the moment" decisions so we don't have to. LEOs have a high risk job, and are paid as such so we don't have to do the things they're paid to do. I'd gladly allow a LEO to shoot a suspect so I don't have to.

Unfortunately they are a reactive group and get in all sorts of trouble for being proactive, so the covering officer will probably recieve suspension and law suits, etc.. for doing the job that he is paid to do.

[axmdr40]

Remember: Keep your booger hook off the bang switch , and everything else should work out fine.

Sounds like a cut and dry case of negligent discharge...ie murder...ok maybe we will never get the whole story, but if what this Williams character says is even half true, someone should be in jail.