QUESTION FOR CIVILIAN/MILITARY

[bogey1]

question #1: do civilians have the right to use deadly force?
question #2: can an active duty military person carry a firearm when at home on leave?

the reason im asking this is, a couple of weeks ago a marine on leave was shot in upland (delco) while being robbed at gun point. my brother in law and i were talking about it and i said i wonder why he wasn't carrying, you know being a marine and all that, he said that military people are not allowed to carry firearms while they are on leave (at home) but they have the right to use deadly force unlike us civilians..

can somebody clear this up? bogey.

[DennisH82]

question #1: do civilians have the right to use deadly force?
question #2: can an active duty military person carry a firearm when at home on leave?

the reason im asking this is, a couple of weeks ago a marine on leave was shot in upland (delco) while being robbed at gun point. my brother in law and i were talking about it and i said i wonder why he wasn't carrying, you know being a marine and all that, he said that military people are not allowed to carry firearms while they are on leave (at home) but they have the right to use deadly force unlike us civilians..

can somebody clear this up? bogey.

I am by no means the subject matter expert on this but:

1) Most laws from different states tell you what force you can use to protect yourself and loved ones, they differ so there is no one rule. My opinion is that is someone attempts to harm me or a loved one I will use the right ammount of force to protect myself and family

2)When you are on leave you can do almost anything that is legal where you live. But you must also understand that if you break the law the military will get its pound of flesh

The use of deadly force remark I won't address becuase it is silly, We have no more permission to use deadly force than any citizen. In Uniform we follow the ROE that is directed.

[max384]

I've always carried when I was home on leave while on active duty. As far as I know, as long as the person in question has a valid license/permit for their state, they can carry while on active duty as long as they're not on post or on duty.

I don't even know where to begin with the deadly force comment your brother-in-law made. Short answer is you, I, and anyone else in PA is authorized to 'use deadly force' in defense of yourself or your loved ones. That includes ex-convicts too (of course weapons charges could be brought against them if they illegally possessed a firearm - but I digress). Marines are not given a 'license to kill' or anything like that. I'd chalk that up to a rumor your brother-in-law knew as 'fact.'

Also, just because someone is a marine does not mean they carry weapons outside of what is required for duty. I know many men and women in the military that are very anti-gun and would never think of carrying or even owning a weapon. Granted, my experience in the military has shown that a higher percent of men and women in uniform are pro-gun as compared with the general population... but that does not mean that it should be assumed that someone who is in the marines also carries and/or supports your right to do so.

[customloaded]

question #1: do civilians have the right to use deadly force?
question #2: can an active duty military person carry a firearm when at home on leave?

the reason im asking this is, a couple of weeks ago a marine on leave was shot in upland (delco) while being robbed at gun point. my brother in law and i were talking about it and i said i wonder why he wasn't carrying, you know being a marine and all that, he said that military people are not allowed to carry firearms while they are on leave (at home) but they have the right to use deadly force unlike us civilians..

can somebody clear this up? bogey.

Ahh, I have never seen a regulation prohibiting a soldier from the legal lawful carry of firearm while off dutys, especially on leave.
I have two LTCF, Pa and Ga. and carry everywhere where legal.

Also, most states allow a military person to carry concealed without a license going to or from military duty.

For Example Maryland:

http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/gcr/4-203.html

This section does not prohibit:


(1) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person who is on active assignment engaged in law enforcement, is authorized at the time and under the circumstances to wear, carry, or transport the handgun as part of the person's official equipment, and is:


(i) a law enforcement official of the United States, the State, or a county or city of the State;


(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard on duty or traveling to or from duty;


(iii) a law enforcement official of another state or subdivision of another state temporarily in this State on official business;


(iv) a correctional officer or warden of a correctional facility in the State;


(v) a sheriff or full-time assistant or deputy sheriff of the State; or


(vi) a temporary or part-time sheriff's deputy;

[Pa. Patriot]

question #1: do civilians have the right to use deadly force?

Depends on the locality.
Generally yes, in response to equal or greater force and fear of imminent death or severe bodily harm.
Pa. is one of those places.
Has nothing to do with being civilian or military while not on duty.
Military personnel have no authority to use deadly force off duty than any civilian.

question #2: can an active duty military person carry a firearm when at home on leave?

Yes, if they could otherwise carry as a civilian (IE: have proper license, exception to license or no license required in that location)

Can military carry "because they are military" while off duty? Generally no. In Pa. active duty military *while on duty* is an exception to 18Pa.C.S.6106 regarding carrying firearms concelaed, in vehicles, etc.

IOW: mil must comply same laws as civilian to carry OFF duty.

[camper]

Ahh, I have never seen a regulation prohibiting a soldier from the legal lawful carry of firearm while off dutys, especially on leave.

(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard on duty or traveling to or from duty;

I'd be clear on this before trying it, becuase "on leave" is not the same as going on duty. When I did honor guard in Jersey, we had the right to carry our Garands while travelling to and from duty becuase we were on the way to a function which required the use of the garand. I did not have the right to carry the rifle on my person on the way to and from my normal workday, because my job did not require me to carry a weapon on my person to perform that duty.

The purpose of the law is to protect the military members from getting arrested if they happen to have a firearm on them while travelling to and from a location that requires them to have it on them, not to protect the member who likes to carry and therefore does.

Standard "applies to everyone" LTCF type rules apply there.

camper

[customloaded]

I'd be clear on this before trying it, becuase "on leave" is not the same as going on duty. When I did honor guard in Jersey, we had the right to carry our Garands while travelling to and from duty becuase we were on the way to a function which required the use of the garand. I did not have the right to carry the rifle on my person on the way to and from my normal workday, because my job did not require me to carry a weapon on my person to perform that duty.

The purpose of the law is to protect the military members from getting arrested if they happen to have a firearm on them while travelling to and from a location that requires them to have it on them, not to protect the member who likes to carry and therefore does.

Standard "applies to everyone" LTCF type rules apply there.

camper

Hey Bro,

Seems like your mixing apples and oranges...nice how you take an independant statement and attach an unrelated paragraph to it and make a point.

I will repeat it again, in different wording:

vvvvvvv-this is the apple part-vvvvvvvvvvvvvv
To my knowledge, there is no REGULATION restricting the personal possession of firearms while not on duty as it pertains to carrying firearm(s) for personal protection. However, upon entering a Military Installation, you must comply with that installations rules and regs as it pertains to firearms and ammunition.

I myself have two LTCF from two states, GA and PA. I carry anywhere where it is legal for myself to do so.

now, here's the completely separate point, you know, the Orange-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv-orange-vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Most states, allow a service member to have a firearm in their possession while traveling to and from duty.

For Example: Maryland, see previous post and link.

Here's Georgia's, NOTE the difference in wording between MD and GA.



O.C.G.A. § 16-11-130 (2009)

§ 16-11-130. Exemptions from Code Sections 16-11-126 through 16-11-128

(a) Code Sections 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 shall not apply to or affect any of the following persons if such persons are employed in the offices listed below or when authorized by federal or state law, regulations, or order:

(1) Peace officers, as such term is defined in paragraph (11) of Code Section 16-1-3, and retired peace officers so long as they remain certified whether employed by the state or a political subdivision of the state or another state or a political subdivision of another state but only if such other state provides a similar privilege for the peace officers of this state;

(2) Wardens, superintendents, and keepers of correctional institutions, jails, or other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of an offense;

[B] (3) Persons in the military service of the state or of the United States;[/B]

(4) Persons employed in fulfilling defense contracts with the government of the United States or agencies thereof when possession of the weapon is necessary for manufacture, transport, installation, and testing under the requirements of such contract;

(5) District attorneys, investigators employed by and assigned to a district attorney's office, assistant district attorneys, attorneys or investigators employed by the Prosecuting Attorneys' Council of the State of Georgia, and any retired district attorney, assistant district attorney, district attorneys investigator, or attorney or investigator retired from the Prosecuting Attorneys' Council of the State of Georgia, if such employee is retired in good standing and is receiving benefits under Title 47 or is retired in good standing and receiving benefits from a county or municipal retirement system;

(6) State court solicitors-general; investigators employed by and assigned to a state court solicitor-general's office; assistant state court solicitors-general; the corresponding personnel of any city court expressly continued in existence as a city court pursuant to Article VI, Section X, Paragraph I, subparagraph (5) of the Constitution; and the corresponding personnel of any civil court expressly continued as a civil court pursuant to said provision of the Constitution;

(7) Those employees of the State Board of Pardons and Paroles when specifically designated and authorized in writing by the members of the State Board of Pardons and Paroles to carry a weapon;

(8) The Attorney General and those members of his or her staff whom he or she specifically authorizes in writing to carry a weapon;

(9) Chief probation officers, probation officers, intensive probation officers, and surveillance officers employed by and under the authority of the Department of Corrections pursuant to Article 2 of Chapter 8 of Title 42, known as the "State-wide Probation Act," when specifically designated and authorized in writing by the director of Division of Probation;

(10) Public safety directors of municipal corporations;

(11) Explosive ordnance disposal technicians, as such term is defined by Code Section 16-7-80, and persons certified as provided in Code Section 35-8-13 to handle animals trained to detect explosives, while in the performance of their duties;

(12) State and federal trial and appellate judges, full-time and permanent part-time judges of municipal and city courts, and former state trial and appellate judges retired from their respective offices under state retirement;

(13) United States Attorneys and Assistant United States Attorneys;

(14) County medical examiners and coroners and their sworn officers employed by county government; and

(15) Clerks of the superior courts.

(b) Code Sections 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 shall not apply to or affect persons who at the time of their retirement from service with the Department of Corrections were chief probation officers, probation officers, intensive probation officers, or surveillance officers, when specifically designated and authorized in writing by the director of Division of Probation.

(c) Code Sections 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 shall not apply to or affect any:

(1) Sheriff, retired sheriff, deputy sheriff, or retired deputy sheriff if such retired deputy sheriff is receiving benefits under the Peace Officers' Annuity and Benefit Fund provided under Chapter 17 of Title 47;

(2) Member of the Georgia State Patrol or agent of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation or retired member of the Georgia State Patrol or agent of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation if such retired member or agent is receiving benefits under the Employees' Retirement System;

(3) Full-time law enforcement chief executive engaging in the management of a county, municipal, state, state authority, or federal law enforcement agency in the State of Georgia, including any college or university law enforcement chief executive that is registered or certified by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council; or retired law enforcement chief executive that formerly managed a county, municipal, state, state authority, or federal law enforcement agency in the State of Georgia, including any college or university law enforcement chief executive that was registered or certified at the time of his or her retirement by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council, if such retired law enforcement chief executive is receiving benefits under the Peace Officers' Annuity and Benefit Fund provided under Chapter 17 of Title 47 or is retired in good standing and receiving benefits from a county, municipal, State of Georgia, state authority, or federal retirement system; or

(4) Police officer of any county, municipal, state, state authority, or federal law enforcement agency in the State of Georgia, including any college or university police officer that is registered or certified by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council, or retired police officer of any county, municipal, state, state authority, or federal law enforcement agency in the State of Georgia, including any college or university police officer that was registered or certified at the time of his or her retirement by the Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council, if such retired employee is receiving benefits under the Peace Officers' Annuity and Benefit Fund provided under Chapter 17 of Title 47 or is retired in good standing and receiving benefits from a county, municipal, State of Georgia, state authority, or federal retirement system. In addition, any such sheriff, retired sheriff, deputy sheriff, retired deputy sheriff, active or retired law enforcement chief executive, or other law enforcement officer referred to in this subsection shall be authorized to carry a pistol or revolver on or off duty anywhere within the state and the provisions of Code Sections 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 shall not apply to the carrying of such firearms.

(d) A prosecution based upon a violation of Code Section 16-11-126, 16-11-127, or 16-11-128 need not negative any exemptions.

[Franky4Fingers]

1. Marine is always capitalized.

2. If serviceman can't carry on base, they sure as heck can't carry off base. As far as I know, they are subject to the same laws we are OFF DUTY. You'll notice when looking up carry laws it will say except military personal on duty (wording may vary)

I'm not a lawyer, but thats the way I interpreted the laws I have read.

[camper]

Hey Bro,

Seems like your mixing apples and oranges...nice how you take an independant statement and attach an unrelated paragraph to it and make a point.

Dude...you're no more a lawyer then me, so climb down off the horse with 15 foot legs and try to chill a bit.

Regardless of my "attaching an unrelated paragraph to it and make a point" look at the context in which that statement appears in Marlyand which is what I was discussing. The exemption is based upon different conditions.

Since my comment was in discussing MARYLAND, their rules are different then what Georgia has to say. Hence Maryland (to which I quoted) has the caveat "on duty or traveling to or from duty".

Since you love the fruit analogy, you're bringing a Georgia peaches into the discussion of Maryland apples and Military Regulation oranges.

Regardless, Georgia law is obviously very different than Maryland or NJ or PA or anywhere else as it pertains to military members and their verions of the LTCF, which gets back to the OP looking for an easy answer to a complicated matter.

camper

[DennisH82]

Everyone is getting all twisted up applying civilian law to Soldiers in uniform. The bottom line is that AR 600-20, AR 670-1 and local Command policies and directives telll you what is and what is not allowed in uniform. If you are lucky enough to have a Commander who doesn't care about his/her career and says carry all you want then you are still subject to a higher commander who can burn you if something happens. I have seen it before and I have also seen some folks who get away with violating pollicy.
What is really important is what each individual wants to gamble with.