Ridiculous Anti Argument

[msquaredserver]

So. Who's ready for another msquaredserver story? I'm fairly certain that there are some of you out there that are sick of hearing my usually ridiculous stories. But I'm also fairly certain that there are some of you that have nothing better to do than either clean your gun or listen to me. So we have that.

So I came to my parents today for Easter. Those of you that have read my OPs related to anti-gun conversations (putting it politely) know that most of my anti-gun arguments come from my parents. Today, they told me that they saw an "illuminating" 20/20 piece about carrying guns. This came just after I got them to accept me carrying in their house. So in my head, I'm repeating "Fuck fuck fuck." This isn't a "fuck fuck fuck" like I was being arrested, more like crap this is going to be annoying.

Let's start by breaking this down into what my parents (fierce antis now) said, and what the web article said. Let's start with what my parents said.

They opened with that they saw this "illuminating" piece on 20/20 that raised a lot of concerns about me carrying firearms. They told me how they gave students extensive practice in the operation of firearms, and prepared them with the knowledge of what to do in a defensive situation. They were a bit fuzzy on these details (I'll explain below) but they said that a classroom full of these students were subjected to a "test terrorism exercise" to see if they would be able to respond. Apparently the piece was also about if carrying on college campuses could have affected the outcomes of incidents like VT and Columbine (if the teachers could carry). So supposedly, in a lecture hall environment, from what my parents explained, all of the students that took the class were "killed" by the fake terrorist before they could fire their Glocks loaded with blanks.

I'm sure that some of you are asking the same questions I asked. "How much training were they subjected to?" "Were they taught the essentials of reacting to defensive situations?" "How the bleep did they just magically get guns loaded with blanks?" Did this supposedly "expert" training school actually hand loaded guns to their students?? Did they have any sort of training besides "this is how not to blow your toes away?"

http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=7298996&page=1

Admittedly, the article online did give a lot of good points that I think all gun owners should take to hear. I wholeheartedly agree with points like ""If you don't have training and you don't use proper tactics with what you're doing, you're probably making yourself a target for somebody," and "You know, would anybody think to get in a car and drive during a rainstorm if they didn't have a license?" Stanton asked. "Would anybody get behind a wheel of an airplane without any flying lessons, you know? While this isn't as dangerous, it's pretty close."

What I did not agree with is the "experiement" that they conducted. Here is a quote from the site depicting what happened.

To put these theories to the test, Benton, Dorney and the Bethlehem Police Department set up an experiment at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pa. ABC News sent out word that police were offering free gun training. And from those who were interested, six people with gun experience ranging from none to more than 100 hours at a range were chosen to take part.

After going through a basic safety course that covered more training than almost half the states in the country require to carry a concealed weapon, the participants were given a real glock handgun loaded with simunition bullets -- bullets that are filled with a kind of paint that does not injure someone on contact.

The participants then headed from the training class to a lecture on protective gear. In the lecture hall were cops or people working with ABC posing as other students taking part in the day's training. None of our participants knew that in moments they would be jolted into an intense and terrifyingly real simulation of an attack by a gunman.

What happens when the gunman bursts through the door? Will the students fall into the same problems the experts talked about, or will they snap to action and cut the gunman down? Watch Diane Sawyer's special tonight to find the startling results, and learn how to best survive this worst-case scenario.

First thoughts from me related to pretty basic control-variable experiment conditions. "By range of 0 to 100 hours of experience, I assume you mean 99% at 0 hours, and the remainder at 100+ hours, right?" "What is taught in this 'basic safety' training session?" "I'm to believe that a certified safety instructor handed his students loaded firearms at the completion of your 'basic safety' course so they could sit in on a session for protective gear? Who does that??"

Long and short of this? I argued with my parents, yet again over guns, for the better part of an hour. I visited the site, and wound up signing up for a "Students for Concealed Carry" Facebook group. I think that enraged them a little bit more, as I oh-so-maturely walked downstairs saying "hey, thanks for telling me about that article! I don't think I'd ever have found this great gun-rights group for students!!"

[TaePo]

Check out the ABC 20/20 show thread.

That was a stress test. It is not designed to show a successful defense use. It is designed to show how stress can cause you to choke and fail.

The test was biased because the defender was always sitting in the same chair/area. The shooter or bad guy was highly trained and knew where the defender was.

The defender had on a super long shirt and gloves as well as a safety helmet.

Further, to test the unknown defender theory, they needed to add one more defender in the class totally unknown to the bad guy shooter. I don't think he would have lasted very long at all.

So, they presented a test that was designed to show a reaction under extreme stress as proof of how futile it is to resist an armed intruder. Not the same thing. Practically a lie. At the very least a failing grade in simple logic. I would definitely expect a whole lot more from a major network with intelligent and educated reporters. But now I must question my judgement based upon unreal expectations!


ETA = here is link to the thread. It addresses most of the issues in the program:
20-20-abc-easy-access-5-000-one-hour-buys-10-guns-gun-show-loophole

[emsjeep]

I have this recurring bad dream in which I draw but cant get the round off because the trigger pull on my HK is too heavy...I had it last night...its the wierdest thing...actually, its kinda like those dreams where you cant get out of the way of a train fast enough or you can't run away from someone fast enough...should i get help?

[Shawn.L]

I have this recurring bad dream in which I draw but cant get the round off because the trigger pull on my HK is too heavy...I had it last night...its the wierdest thing...actually, its kinda like those dreams where you cant get out of the way of a train fast enough or you can't run away from someone fast enough...should i get help?

or maybe get a dream trigger job ?

[Guy Fawkes]

You will not change your parents attitudes, they are too old. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow. Just listen and ignore, peace with your parents can be worth it.

[stephpd]

There are two threads here dealing with the show:

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/553...-loophole.html

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-114/5...0-20-guns.html

The first one deals mostly with the gun show loophole. The second deals with the show in general. Comments on the show start on page 7. Many members here noticed the classroom situation was very slanted early on.

Now that you posted that there were 6 students in the experiment and only 3 shown it makes me wonder if the others did better. But it was a situation where the students were set up to fail. The clothing,gloves, holster and helmet all were there to slow things down for the student. That the 'instructor' was the BG (most trained individual vs an recent carrier) placed the student at a disadvantage. That they all sat in the same seat gave the instructor the upper hand. He shot the teacher and went straight to the student with the gun.

Just having a 'live fire' as part of the course is more then many states require. That they went straight from the training to the classroom gives the student less then 1 hour with the gun,holster and clothing. None of those other items were used in the training course.

That ABC would air a test so slanted for failure and show that it's better to bend over and kiss your a** goodbye is pure propaganda. That they didn't even give one minute in a 60 minute show to refute any of this show the lengths they went to show only one side of a story.

Good luck with your parents. Seems they bought it hook, line and sinker.

[typeshluder]

I have this recurring bad dream in which I draw but cant get the round off because the trigger pull on my HK is too heavy...I had it last night...its the wierdest thing...actually, its kinda like those dreams where you cant get out of the way of a train fast enough or you can't run away from someone fast enough...should i get help?

Wow, I have that exact dream quite often. I found the meaning of it searching online. Was pretty dead on for me.

What it means: "You may be facing a difficult decision," says Dr. Kramer. Express your concerns to trusted confidants so they're not bottled up, and try writing down the pros and cons of, say, changing careers.

[emsjeep]

Wow, I have that exact dream quite often. I found the meaning of it searching online. Was pretty dead on for me.

Hmm...I don't know if that fits...

The outcome of mine was interesting, I took a round to the left shoulder, only a flesh wound, I became a hostage for a while, then me and a buddy overpowered a 6' 5" non english speaking badguy, he controled the handguns the guy was dual weilding while I jumped him from behind, choked him with my right arm then broke his neck...

let me tell you, not as easy as I had anticipated. The other hostages and I were liberated, along with my buddy and gf...very very very fucking wierd...

[PennsyPlinker]

I have been your age with parents. I am a parent with children your age. If they are smart, they will at least listen to what you have to say.

So what if everyone with a gun was killed anyway? If the terrorists came into the classroom to kill everyone, then they would have been killed regardless of whether they had a gun or not, so the question is rendered moot. A gun is no guarantee that you will survive such a situation, but it certainly does not diminish the odds. Put it to them that way and see what they have to say about it.

[Decholder]

So what if everyone with a gun was killed anyway? If the terrorists came into the classroom to kill everyone, then they would have been killed regardless of whether they had a gun or not, so the question is rendered moot. A gun is no guarantee that you will survive such a situation, but it certainly does not diminish the odds. Put it to them that way and see what they have to say about it.

Not only that, but all the BG's focus was on the student attempting to take him down....So even if the BG happens to be a highly trained LEO firearms instructor, and even if you've never shot a gun before a shootout happens, and even if you are killed in a shootout with the BG, you still have managed to accomplish one thing at least: you've still given your buddies an extra opportunity to live (or draw their own firearms ) And if that's the only thing that I would accomplish in that situation, then so be it...But I'm not going to sit back and let the ass hole just come in and kill anyone and everyone he wants without giving him my two cents worth first.

So what do these "exposes" from the media stress? "Save your own ass, because it's the only one that matters...." What a line of BS from spineless, self absorbed, glory hounds!