Is the "ghost gun" the next gun show loophole?

[ForeverPA]

I have to admit I don't build my guns so I know very little about serial numbers etc. What is the deal on "ghost guns?" Usually, there is a grain truth in some of these hypes but it's never the full story.

[JaySmith]

Ghost guns are a scary term invented by the media to encourage people to vote against it.

In reality, a ghost gun is any home made or self-manufactured firearm, which is 100% legal. You can make your own gun, hands down. The part that the politicians don't like is manufacturers selling 80% kits, basically the manufacturer starts with an ingot, gets to 80%, and stops. Then, you have to do the remainder of the work. Since it's not a "firearm", it doesn't require a serial number, or an FFL transfer.

I've bought 80% AR15 lowers, and it takes me about 2 hours on a professional mill having experience to finish an 80% lower to 100%. Then, it takes me just as long to take a "parts kit" which includes the lower and upper assembly, minus stripped lower receiver. I assemble the trigger assembly, pins, mag release, buffer/tube, safety selector, etc. Then attach the barrel, gas tube, gas block, and barrel guard, put in the BCG and charging handle, and boom, I have built an AR15 using parts shipped directly to my door with tools in my garage without a background check. Whether you think that should be legal or not is a debate, but it's legal right now.

That being said, the media and politicians are flat out lying when you can finish this thing in 30min and go on a murdering rampage. It takes 2 hours on a several thousand dollar machine to do an 80%. I've done one on a drill press as well, my first one actually. It took me easily 8+ hours over the course of 3 days because i didn't have the right tools for the job.

Now, I work with 7075 aluminum frame receivers. There are polymer frame receivers which I've never touched. I don't know if they're faster, I'd imagine so. But I wouldn't want to take one into the field.

But I suspect that they're targeting the glock clones where you mill out a polymer frame and attach a metal slide and make yourself a glock. I don't think it can be done in 30 minutes without a lot of experience and hte right tools. I've never made one, personally, but I am familiar with the process. The problem with banning those is they'd be effectively banning home made guns because at what point does a piece of aluminum stop being an ingot and start being a receiver. Previously, the ATF defined that at 81%, thus the 80% lowers shipped to your door without a 4473.

At least that's how I understand it.

[HanzMcFeely]

Ghost guns are a scary term invented by the media to encourage people to vote against it.

In reality, a ghost gun is any home made or self-manufactured firearm, which is 100% legal. You can make your own gun, hands down. The part that the politicians don't like is manufacturers selling 80% kits, basically the manufacturer starts with an ingot, gets to 80%, and stops. Then, you have to do the remainder of the work. Since it's not a "firearm", it doesn't require a serial number, or an FFL transfer.

I've bought 80% AR15 lowers, and it takes me about 2 hours on a professional mill having experience to finish an 80% lower to 100%. Then, it takes me just as long to take a "parts kit" which includes the lower and upper assembly, minus stripped lower receiver. I assemble the trigger assembly, pins, mag release, buffer/tube, safety selector, etc. Then attach the barrel, gas tube, gas block, and barrel guard, put in the BCG and charging handle, and boom, I have built an AR15 using parts shipped directly to my door with tools in my garage without a background check. Whether you think that should be legal or not is a debate, but it's legal right now.

That being said, the media and politicians are flat out lying when you can finish this thing in 30min and go on a murdering rampage. It takes 2 hours on a several thousand dollar machine to do an 80%. I've done one on a drill press as well, my first one actually. It took me easily 8+ hours over the course of 3 days because i didn't have the right tools for the job.

Now, I work with 7075 aluminum frame receivers. There are polymer frame receivers which I've never touched. I don't know if they're faster, I'd imagine so. But I wouldn't want to take one into the field.

But I suspect that they're targeting the glock clones where you mill out a polymer frame and attach a metal slide and make yourself a glock. I don't think it can be done in 30 minutes without a lot of experience and hte right tools. I've never made one, personally, but I am familiar with the process. The problem with banning those is they'd be effectively banning home made guns because at what point does a piece of aluminum stop being an ingot and start being a receiver. Previously, the ATF defined that at 81%, thus the 80% lowers shipped to your door without a 4473.

At least that's how I understand it.

It can be “done” (cut/drilled/assembled) in about 30-45 min if you have the experience, are mechanically inclined, and all the parts on hand, and buy a completed/assembled slide. And thats only if you dont care about how it looks in the end, dont mine having holes that have swarf left in them, arent paying attention to details, and rails/locking block area that are rough and cause malfunctions.

Doing it right, probably closer to 2-3 hours to build and assemble when you factor in wet sanding and polishing, etc.

However:. To be fully reliable it takes much longer and range time to break in and tweak/fix any issues that arise (FTF, FTF, etc). My first build, having no experience beyond detail stripping a glock once or twice, took me 4 hours of prep and assembly on the lower. And another 4-5 hours range time plus 1000 rounds of ammo to finish and have functioning flawlessly.

The second one i built? Im 2 hours into it and i havent wet sanded or built/installed the slide yet. Nevermind the upcoming range time and ammo expense plus troubleshooting i expect to do. Its not a factory built firearm with uniform parts tolerances. Finding the right pieces and combination of parts to work together properly is a crapshoot. Tolerance stacking is a real thing...its why i ended up in part spending over $1200 to build the first one

Edit to add: its very easy to fuck up a poly 80 also, and remove too much material. Mine has ridiculously tight lockup on the barrel to slide because i took just a bit too much off the a RSA block in the frame. Still functions fine but took a lot to get it there. And with the new aftermarket barrel i suspect it’ll go back to needing broken in again with another 1k rounds.

[HanzMcFeely]

Also to add: the cost to build a p80 is actually more than going out and buying a new factory glock. Just on the lower alone for the second build (not counting spare parts on hand and ones scavenged from the first build that i used) i’m $240 into the build. For a basic assembled slide, add another $350. Then add truglo sights for another $75...i could have bought a factory glock for $450 and added truglo sights and saved about $120. Theres a reason they are callee Gucci Glocks ya know...

None of this is really about the criminals using these “ghost guns” for crime. They arent going to spend $800 for a gucci glock that they are likely to dispose of after committing a crime. The whole thing is about “we dont like that its so “easy” for the peasants to build their own firearms, that we dont like them having anyhow, or having the right to do such thing, so lets take a step to make it difficult and ultimately lead to taking them away from them for good.”

[jthrelf]

It's 99% bullshit. Also they recently changed the definition of 'ghost gun' to include guns with defaced serial numbers (you know, that have been illegal for decades). So now ghost guns are not just 80% builds, they're any gun with a missing or damaged serial number. So any stat of more being used in crime lately is in a facade of bullshit.

[USMC3531]

They have been after homebuilds for years, that's why they keep changing the import requirements of "parts kits" used to be able to buy saw cut kits with live barrels now its all torch cut in specific locations and destroyed barrels. They hate when anything is too easy.

[akley88]

some of the "ghost guns" that are reported as being found were guns with serial numbers removed but including these boosts the numbers being reported.

[Pilot321]

Casper is going to be pissed!

[ForeverPA]

From what I read here, it's a lot easier for a criminal to get his hands on a gun than to make it himself. Building ARs is much more common. It seems like you just snap parts together and voila. Do those build carry a serial number anywhere?

[NathanB]

Can’t stop the signal. 3D printers are banging out parts in little to no time. This is going to be impossible to enforce