Police point gun at CCW carrier

[RugerNiner]

Court upholds police pointing gun at lawful carrier


December 31, 6:49 AMAtlanta Gun Rights ExaminerEd Stone



Is this the reaction concealed carry should bring from the police? Oleg Volk, A Human Right


It's open season on gun carriers.

A case out of the First Circuit has some painful lessons for gun carriers in Georgia. A United States Circuit Court of Appeals last week upheld the constitutionality of pointing a gun at any citizen daring to carry, lawfully, a concealed weapon in public.

The First Circuit Court of Appeals is the Court just below the United States Supreme Court in the New England states. The case stems from a lawyer who sued a police officer after he was detained for lawfully carrying a concealed weapon while in possession of a license to carry concealed. According to the case opinion, the lawyer, Greg Schubert, had a pistol concealed under his suit coat, and Mr. Schubert was walking in what the court described as a "high crime area." At some point a police officer, J.B. Stern, who lived up to his last name, caught a glimpse of the attorney's pistol, and he leapt out of his patrol car "in a dynamic and explosive manner" with his gun drawn, pointing it at the attorney's face.

Officer Stern "executed a pat-frisk," and Mr. Schubert produced his license to carry a concealed weapon. He was disarmed and ordered to stand in front of the patrol car in the hot sun. At some point, the officer locked him in the back seat of the police car and delivered a lecture. Officer Stern "partially Mirandized Schubert, mentioned the possibility of a criminal charge, and told Schubert that he (Stern) was the only person allowed to carry a weapon on his beat."

For most people, this would be enough to conclude that they were being harassed for the exercise of a constitutional right, but the officer went further, seizing the attorney's pistol and leaving with it. Officer Stern reasoned that because he could not confirm the "facially valid" license to carry, he would not permit the attorney to carry. Officer Stern drove away with the license and the firearm, leaving the attorney unarmed, dressed in a suit, and alone in what the officer himself argued was a high crime area.

The attorney sued in federal court, but the District Court threw out his suit, ruling that Officer Stern's behavior is the proper way to treat people who lawfully carry concealed pistols. Mr. Schubert appealed, and the First Circuit upheld the District Court's ruling. The court held that the stop was lawful and that Officer Stern "was permitted to take actions to ensure his own safety."

The court further held that the officer was entitled to confirm the validity of a "facially valid" license to carry a concealed weapon. The problem for Officer Stern was that there is no way to do so in Massachusetts, where this incident occurred. As a result, the court held that Officer Stern "sensibly opted to terminate the stop and release Schubert, but retain the weapon."

Georgia is not in the First Circuit, but this case holds some harsh lessons for Georgians who exercise their right to bear arms. Recall that in the MARTA case here in Georgia, the court held that the officer was entitled to take measures to protect himself, including disarming the person carrying, and entitled to investigate further for a half hour even after Mr. Raissi produced a Georgia firearms license. Although the officers in that case did not actually point a gun at Mr. Raissi's face, as Officer Stern did to attorney Schubert, it is a logical conclusion that the court would have upheld the constitutionality of them doing so. The vast majority of the cases MARTA cited in its briefs to the federal court included an officer pointing a gun at the person stopped. In addition, carrying a concealed weapon onto the MARTA system is a felony, and no court is going to hold that an officer violated any constitutional right by pointing a gun at an armed felon.

Furthermore, it must be recalled that Georgia, like Massachussetts and the vast majority of states, has no system to confirm the validity of a Georgia firearms license. The similarities between the MARTA federal opinion and the First Circuit opinion are startling, and the implications for Georgia are clear.

This First Circuit case is a logical extension of the MARTA case here in Georgia, and it shows what armed Georgians can expect if the General Assembly does not take action soon to correct the presumption of criminality that federal judge Thomas Thrash attached to the exercise of the right to bear arms.

Welcome to the new "right" to bear arms.

For more info: Read the full text of the First Circuit opinion by clicking here.

[customloaded]

Scary!!!!


However, how was the case brought forward in court? Was RAS a significant part of the officer's actions or 4th amendment issues? Many details left out as to what the main substance was as it pertains to the suit and the courts reasoning that the officer acted appropriately.

[dc dalton]

The attorney sued in federal court, but the District Court threw out his suit, ruling that Officer Stern's behavior is the proper way to treat people who lawfully carry concealed pistols. Mr. Schubert appealed, and the First Circuit upheld the District Court's ruling. The court held that the stop was lawful and that Officer Stern "was permitted to take actions to ensure his own safety."

Say WHAT? Exactly what freaking country is this court in? North Korea?

Man I hope this one goes to SCOTUS cause this court (and LE) need a bitch slapping and then some.

[rikilii]

This certainly doesn't surprise me coming from Massachusetts or the First Circuit. Not surprising at all.

[cadence2arms]

I love the part where stern said that he is the only one allowed to carry on his beat! And the court lets him get away with that kind of thinking and actions. Great! Real progress for legal gun owners.

[falcn]

No way to validate a license?

[Steve_NEPhila]

Interesting law questions abound here. It is not surprising to see that civil liberties do not mean shit to the circuit court involved.

Why cant these blowhard aggressive cops be brought up on criminal charges? Civil Rights violations? It looks like Officer Stern and his colleagues like Lon Horiuchi are free to do as they please. Paging Justice Scalia...

[thebearpack]

Even if a case like this would make it to the SCOTUS, we're not likely to see a ruling our way thanks to Obama's latest appointment. God help us if he's able to put another flaming racist liberal up there before we can get him out of office. Elections have long-term and far-reaching consequences, especially in the court system.

[Dannytheman]

I truly believed until I read the brief that this was from the Onion!!

UN FRIKKIN BElievable !!

[rikilii]

I'm reading the opinion right now, and this pretty much explains the attitude of the Court:

"We need not outline in detail the obvious and potentially horrific events that could have transpired had an officer noted a man walking toward the courthouse with a gun and chosen not to intervene."

I guess they need not outline the potentially horrific events that could have transpired had the officer not stopped every single person walking toward the courthouse, because any one of them could have been carrying a concealed weapon. Based on this, one could argue that it's even less reasonable to suspect a person who is open carrying of being involved in a crime that just any person walking down the street. After all, any criminal with half a brain would be very careful to cover up his gun before he needs to use it.


The bottom line, according to the 1st Circuit, is that the mere observation of firearm in possession of an ordinary citizen is sufficient grounds for a RAS to conduct a Terry stop.