Strange Question at Philadelphia Gun and Knife Show - Oaks, PA

[sbmania]

I just got back from the show - nice selection, not very crowded, enjoyed it. There was a gun check at the door as there is at most gun shows. As I passed by and was entering, I overheard behind me one of Upper Providence's police officers stationed at the door ask someone behind me "do you have a pistol permit for that? May I see it?"
Is that an appropriate and legal request? Not sure who it was that was asked, don't know why the question was asked, or if everyone who declared a pistol was similarly asked to produce a permit. Anyone else see or experience this?

[Kodiak]

I just got back from the show - nice selection, not very crowded, enjoyed it. There was a gun check at the door as there is at most gun shows. As I passed by and was entering, I overheard behind me one of Upper Providence's police officers stationed at the door ask someone behind me "do you have a pistol permit for that? May I see it?"
Is that an appropriate and legal request? Not sure who it was that was asked, don't know why the question was asked, or if everyone who declared a pistol was similarly asked to produce a permit. Anyone else see or experience this?

Thats guy was an asshat to say the least.....my buddy was standing near the door as I hit the ATM...and he asked if he was waiting for someone....talk about profiling LOL.....my buddy is this huge black guy with tattoos all over his arms.

Why were cops there anyway?

[Dave in PA]

I'd say if the person the LEO was speaking to had a concealed handgun, yeah, he was in the right to ask. I always CC'ed to gun shows and had to unconceal in order to clear and get my zip tie. If a cop saw that, he may ask if I had a permit..... Funny thing though, at LEAST 50% of the people coming through the doors were carrying. I have only been to one show that didn't ask or care, that was at a firecompay in Upper Mount Bethel.

[64Jeeper]

They asked me if I was carrying when I came in, and asked if I had a LTCF, because I was CC. I told him that I have a LTCF, but that I wasn't required to show it. I think he knew that, because he politely asked me again, saying something like "I just need to make sure you are legal to carry that way". I showed him just to avoid a problem.

[sbmania]

I don't get it. This was a gun show - we're supposed to be among like minded people. I never saw this type of heavy handed police crap at any other gun show in the area, and believe me, I have hit them all! No other shows have police demanding to see carry permits. Promoters are just glad that you produce your carry gun at all to get zip tied. I suspect most cc'ers don't.

[Kodiak]

I don't get it. This was a gun show - we're supposed to be among like minded people. I never saw this type of heavy handed police crap at any other gun show in the area, and believe me, I have hit them all! No other shows have police demanding to see carry permits. Promoters are just glad that you produce your carry gun at all to get zip tied. I suspect most cc'ers don't.

There was even a cop inside walking around at one point....When well pulled up at 9am there was 3 police cars outside...two cruisers and a SUV.....what are we friggin criminals?

[Pa. Patriot]

... I overheard behind me one of Upper Providence's police officers stationed at the door ask someone behind me "do you have a pistol permit for that? May I see it?"
Is that an appropriate and legal request? Not sure who it was that was asked, don't know why the question was asked, or if everyone who declared a pistol was similarly asked to produce a permit. Anyone else see or experience this?

Not knowing the circumstances it is impossible to answer your Q.

But if the officer was indeed simply asking everyone disclosing they were carrying (presumably concealed) for an LTCF ("permit"), then no, in my opinion it was NOT "appropriate". Legal, as long as it was a question and not a demand, as the officer can ask anyone anything he likes. But under such circumstances you should be able to refuse to answer.
If he was indeed asking everyone that disclosed they had a handgun for production of a LTCF IMO this is nothing more than fishing and harassment. I have no problem speaking to LEO's, but when they start fishing I'll politely let them know I refuse to cooperate. Unless he has reasonable suspicion that I have violated the law he has no authority to hold me. ("Am I being detained?") and I will not voluntarily be detained and fished no matter how compliant with the law I am (Hey, I have nothing to hide ) but I also will not willingly participate in, and by doing so endorse, this type of fishing.
But that's me.

I'd say if the person the LEO was speaking to had a concealed handgun, yeah, he was in the right to ask. .

He has the "right" to ask anyone anything he want.... Even if you do not have a concealed handgun he could still ask...
And you have the right to not answer. Unless you're being stopped on reasonable suspicion of a crime, no documents will be necessary, nor required.
An LTCF does not suspend your 4th A rights. As I understand it, an inspection of your LTCF is the same as an inspection of your drivers license, tax records, bank records or your pockets, car or house. It is a search. And if you do not consent to search then a LEO must have suspicion of a crime in order to conduct such a search.

Funny thing is that if he truly wanted to catch fish, he should have sat in the parking lot and asked everyone who pulled in for their drivers license... That would have yielded far more violators

[bogey1]

let me get this straight, if im cc'ing and a cop just wants to ask if i have a ltcf (because he saw me printing) i dont have to show it to him?

[Pa. Patriot]

let me get this straight, if im cc'ing and a cop just wants to ask if i have a ltcf (because he saw me printing) i dont have to show it to him?

The way I see it, what PC does he have that you are breaking the law? Searching your papers requires a warrant or PC. And firearms are no exception.

There are lots of case law on this (such as such as Hibel). DO a google for 4th amendment case law if you want to blow a weekend There is even USSC that overturns state laws on ID.
See http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...3_0047_ZS.htmlhttp://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...3_0047_ZS.html

And carrying a firearm is not an exception to 4th A rights despite many LEO's treating it as such.
see: Florida v. J. L

[JCWohlschlag]

let me get this straight, if im cc'ing and a cop just wants to ask if i have a ltcf (because he saw me printing) i dont have to show it to him?

If the officer has reasonable, articulable suspicion (RAS) to detain you in a lawful Terry stop, then you do have certain legal obligations such as identifying yourself (at least verbally), producing license to operate a motor vehicle, proof of insurance, and vehicle registration (when actually operating a vehicle), and producing a license to carry a firearm if the demand is “lawful”. What constitutes reasonable, articulable suspicion (RAS) or a “lawful” demand, like your printing example may or may not, is fodder for numerous other threads on the subject.

A police officer just asking questions to everyone who enters a building because they know gun owners and carriers will be there is not a valid reason (by itself) to Terry stop anyone, so you are not legally required to produce documentation of any sort, answer any questions, speak to the officer at all, or even remain in the officer’s presence. Unless you are being detained in a Terry stop, you can shut up and walk away if you so desire.