Question about taking kids to school

[jaseman]

Question for parents whose kids are in public schools...

My daughter is currently in a private preschool, but will be going to public school next year for kindergarten. Our district has no bus system, so I will have to pick her up and drop her off at school every day.

I fully understand that I can't carry into the school, or even on the property. Now, the school has a very small parking lot, so I can park off-property, lock my EDC in a lockbox in the car, and walk her the 100' to the building, but my concern is with how the law is written concerning 'conveyance':

18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

So even if the car never touches school property, I'm assuming my car is now the "conveyance", and therefore, I would technically be breaking the law, simply by driving my daughter to school.

So how do other parents handle this? Any thoughts?
(and no, private or home schooling is not a viable option)

[Hokkmike]

I am very sure that "or in any conveyance providing transportation" refers only to vehicles provided for or by the school to convey or transport students, i.e., school buses, school vans, privately contracted school drivers who use their cars, and etc.

[R L Suehr]

First IANAL.

I would say the spirit of the law would mean possession of a weapon on a school owned conveyence ie: Bus, Van, Car owned by the school district or on school property since this is covering possession on school poroperty. Since in your description your car [private property] is going to be parked in a private lot [also private property] thn you should be OK as long as the firearm doesn't go onto school property.

If this law covered all conveyences then you would have to clean out even tools from your car to take your child to school as they would be prohibited.



(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon"
in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime),
"weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be
limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-
chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool,
instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily
injury.


There is also the other lawful purpose definition in there which I think would hold more validity as you described.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is
possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised
school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful
purpose.

Best bet is to tell your daughter not to mention the fact that daddy carries a gun at all as most public schools are PC nightmares waiting to happen.

This would be my take on it. Hopefully one of the lawyers on board here will chime in as I would be interested to get their take on this. My daughter just started preschool and I'll be in kind of the same boat from time to time here soon.

[GunLawyer001]

The wording of the statute is ambiguous, so that while we may THINK we're sure of the intent, in fact a cop or DA could push it and prosecute a parent found with a weapon in his own car, while using it to take students to the school, whether on school property or off.

What we were sold with these laws was the idea that spree shooters and troubled students would be the focus. Instead, people like my client Chris were dragged through Hell for totally victimless "crimes". In his case, his licensed handgun was in his own locked car, in the school parking lot.

We got an acquittal, but the cost was substantial, and the risk remains uncertain for the next citizen unlucky enough to be targeted.

The PA statute needs to be amended to match the Federal statute, which unambiguously exempts law-abiding citizens who are licensed by the state where the school sits. No K-12 students can utilize that exemption, the law remains a tool against crazed students (not a good one, but it's no weaker if amended as I suggest).

Further, it should be an element of the charge that you possessed a weapon "for criminal purposes". Now, it's an affirmative defense that your "dangerous weapon" (such as a car, a bag of tools, a pencil, a rock or a gun) was possessed for a "lawful purpose". The substance would be the same, bad people with weapons for bad purposes would STILL be prosecutable, but we'd end this bizarre practice of dragging people through $10,000 of legal fees so that they can establish that they weren't doing anything wrong. Make that "unlawful purpose" part of the preliminary hearing's burden on the state, and the law-abiding citizens will be protected and the bad guys will be just as open to the justice system.

[streaker69]

I am very sure that "or in any conveyance providing transportation" refers only to vehicles provided for or by the school to convey or transport students, i.e., school buses, school vans, privately contracted school drivers who use their cars, and etc.

You'd like to think that's what the law says, but it doesn't.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the
first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on
the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation
to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded
educational institution, any elementary or secondary private
school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary
or secondary parochial school.

The law doesn't define who owns or operates the vehicle (conveyance), merely that it's being used to transport students to the school.

[BucksCountyBob]

GunLawyer,

If you can, could you elaborate on the circumstances that led to a search of your client's car and the discovery of his gun? I have, on occasion, left a gun in a locked box in my car while dropping off my child's forgotten lunch at school on my way to work. I can't envision a scenario where the school and/or agents acting on it's behalf would find it necessary to search my car.

Thanks,

BCB

[Shodan]

I'm sure it's something obvious that I'm overlooking, but what school district doesn't have busses and why?

[jaseman]

First IANAL.

I would say the spirit of the law would mean possession of a weapon on a school owned conveyence ie: Bus, Van, Car owned by the school district or on school property since this is covering possession on school poroperty. Since in your description your car [private property] is going to be parked in a private lot [also private property] thn you should be OK as long as the firearm doesn't go onto school property.

If this law covered all conveyences then you would have to clean out even tools from your car to take your child to school as they would be prohibited.

I understand, that this is probably the 'spirit' of the law (I say probably, as you never know when politicians wright laws), but not being clearly defined, leaves the door wide open to problems.

The wording of the statute is ambiguous, so that while we may THINK we're sure of the intent, in fact a cop or DA could push it and prosecute a parent found with a weapon in his own car, while using it to take students to the school, whether on school property or off.

This is my biggest concern. Some DA looking to make a name for themselves can easily push the wording to make a criminal out of an otherwise law-abiding citizen.

The PA statute needs to be amended to match the Federal statute, which unambiguously exempts law-abiding citizens who are licensed by the state where the school sits. No K-12 students can utilize that exemption, the law remains a tool against crazed students (not a good one, but it's no weaker if amended as I suggest).

We could only be so lucky....

You'd like to think that's what the law says, but it doesn't.



The law doesn't define who owns or operates the vehicle (conveyance), merely that it's being used to transport students to the school.

Bingo! And there lies my problem.

[jaseman]

I'm sure it's something obvious that I'm overlooking, but what school district doesn't have busses and why?

PM'ed you.



It's a small municipality, and considered a "sidewalk" community. Every school is considered to be within walking distance of the students (but I'm not about to let my 5 y/o walk 2 miles by herself, especially since she'ed have to cross a busy, 4-lane road)

My understanding for the real reason why no busses, as told by the old-timers in the community though is:
When many of the poorer communities started bussing their students into better school districts, not having a bus system was a way of avoiding it. But that's just the rumor, not the official reason.

[Shodan]

PM'ed you.



It's a small municipality, and considered a "sidewalk" community. Every school is considered to be within walking distance of the students (but I'm not about to let my 5 y/o walk 2 miles by herself, especially since she'ed have to cross a busy, 4-lane road)

My understanding for the real reason why no busses, as told by the old-timers in the community though is:
When many of the poorer communities started bussing their students into better school districts, not having a bus system was a way of avoiding it. But that's just the rumor, not the official reason.

They actually expect a 5 yo to walk to school in this day, regardless of the distance?

They won't provide bussing, but if a kid in my neighborhood goes to a private school 20 miles away our district provides the transportation. Like my boys say "seems legit".