Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Who Should Own Guns in America?

    note this web site has audio format of this story.

    http://www.voanews.com/english/NewsA...02-08-voa2.cfm

    Who Should Own Guns in America?
    By Jela De Franceschi
    Washington D.C.
    08 February 2008



    Next month, the Supreme Court of the United States is expected to hear oral arguments on the 32-year-old law that restricts gun ownership in Washington, DC. It will be the first time in nearly 70 years that the high court will hear a case on whether the Second Amendment to the U.S.
    Constitution guarantees an individual or a collective right to own firearms.


    Self-reliance as a feature of America's idea of liberty has deep roots in the nation's constitutional tradition. It begins, many experts say, with the country's frontier history, when muskets were used for hunting and protection by the first settlers in the New World. They add that self-defense and guns were also tied to America's Revolutionary War experience.

    A Long History

    "The American love affair with firearms is very old. It has to do with the fact that it was an armed citizenry that enabled the revolution against the British in the late 18th century," says Benjamin Wittes, Director in Pubic Law at the Brookings Institution here in Washington.

    "At any given moment in American history, there is sort of a gun that kind of represents it -- whether it's the musket in the hands of the militiamen or the Colt .45 in the Wild West or the Tommy Gun in the urban warfare of the gangster era," says Wittes.

    "Then you tie in another dominant theme. From the very beginning in the United States, there was an enormous fear of what were called 'standing armies'," says Ralph Rossum, who teaches political philosophy and the American Constitution at Claremont McKenna College in California.

    "The Framing generation [i.e., America's Founding Fathers] was enormously suspicious of governmental power and wanted an armed militia. They worried about standing armies. Standing armies were often sources of corruption. And there was the fear that a standing army could be mobilized against the liberties of the people," says Rossum.

    The idea of establishing militias was incorporated in the Second Amendment. The text consists of two clauses. One speaks of the necessity of creating "a well regulated Militia," the other speaks of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."

    Interpreting the Second Amendment

    Most experts point to what they consider to be the ambiguous wording of the Second Amendment, which has resulted in two opposing interpretations of what it protects: individual liberties or states' rights.


    The Supreme Court of the United States

    The debate over whether it protects individual or collective rights to possess firearms intensified in the second half of the 20th century. But in more than 200 years, the Supreme Court has rarely addressed the issue. The high court last looked at the Second Amendment in 1939.

    But last year, the Supreme Court accepted a case that deals with the constitutionality of prohibiting private citizens from keeping guns in their homes. At issue is Washington, DC's 32-year-old law that bans the possession of firearms unless they are unloaded, locked or disassembled.

    Eugene Volokh, who teaches constitutional law at the University of California at Los Angeles, says a federal appeals court ruled last year that the ban was unconstitutional.

    "The DC Circuit [Court of Appeals], which is the federal court in charge of DC, held that in fact it is an individual right and that the gun ban violates that right. So now that there is this disagreement among courts, the U.S. Supreme Court has stepped in to decide the issue," says Volokh.

    Supporters of individual liberties argue that in a free society each citizen must have the right to bear arms, and that this right safeguards all other rights Americans enjoy. But the opposing side contends that the Second Amendment has to do with the obligation citizens owe to the state to participate in a militia.

    Legal scholar Eugene Volokh says such critics hold that the Second Amendment has nothing to do with individual rights. "Those who take a states' rights view argue that it is the right of the people as a collective entity acting through their states and state militias. So they focus on the first clause of the amendment, which is 'a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state'," says Volokh. "The individual rights view is that the purpose of the individual right is to maintain the armed citizenry as a means of protecting freedom against despotism. But the way that purpose is accomplished is by securing to individual people the right to keep and bear arms."


    A Supreme Court Ruling

    Volokh says the Supreme Court's ruling on the Washington, DC law - which is expected in the next few months - could be a landmark decision that answers the long-standing question of whether the Second Amendment guarantees an individual or a collective right.

    But other scholars, including the Brookings Institution's Benjamin Wittes say that the case could be the first chapter in examining the constitutionality of gun control rather than the final word.

    "If it is a collective right, then the issue goes away. Then any state can regulate individual firearms ownership as it sees fit," says Wittes. "But if it is an individual right, then you have this second level question, which is: What kind of an individual right is it? Does that mean the state can still regulate, but it can't ban? Does it mean the state has to respect your right to own it absolutely?"

    Some experts say that because none of the justices of the current Supreme Court have ever presided over a Second Amendment case, any prediction about how the court will rule is little more than speculation. But others contend it is unlikely that the high court will cancel a right that is embedded in the ideas of self-reliance and self-defense, which is central to America's identity.

    This story was first broadcast on the English news program, VOA News Now. For other Focus reports click here.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!! End of story!!! If you are a law abiding citizen and over the age of 18 then you should be able to purchase ANY firearm you want. If you are under the age of 18 then you should be able to purchase ANY firearm you want with your parent as a co-signer. VIOLENT criminals should have their firearm rights restricted but ONLY for the period of time that they are incarcerated and/or on parole/probation. Once their debt to society is paid then their rights ought to be restored IN FULL!!! If we don't question their right to free speech, free press, freedom of religion, the right to due process, the right to be own and be secure in their property and possessions then we had DAMN WELL BETTER respect their right to keep and bear arms. That being said, the district attorneys in this country MUST STOP cutting deals, enforce mandatory minimum sentencing, STOP making prisons hotels with a few minor restrictions (southern work farms or tent city are both great examples of true deterents to repeat offenders). USE the death penalty in ALL murder cases (malicious killing) and in ALL rape cases provided that DNA evidence can be used to convict the person BEYOND THE REASON OF A DOUBT!!! Mandate inmate education programs so that they don't have to return to a life of crime when they are released. We need to start working on fixing people, not limiting the rights of people to own inanimate objects.

    Sorry I got a little off topic but thats how I see this issue. Please feel free to respond, I'd like to hear your opinion.
    MOLON LABE

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHands View Post
    SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!! End of story!!! If you are a law abiding citizen and over the age of 18 then you should be able to purchase ANY firearm you want. If you are under the age of 18 then you should be able to purchase ANY firearm you want with your parent as a co-signer. VIOLENT criminals should have their firearm rights restricted but ONLY for the period of time that they are incarcerated and/or on parole/probation. Once their debt to society is paid then their rights ought to be restored IN FULL!!! If we don't question their right to free speech, free press, freedom of religion, the right to due process, the right to be own and be secure in their property and possessions then we had DAMN WELL BETTER respect their right to keep and bear arms. That being said, the district attorneys in this country MUST STOP cutting deals, enforce mandatory minimum sentencing, STOP making prisons hotels with a few minor restrictions (southern work farms or tent city are both great examples of true deterents to repeat offenders). USE the death penalty in ALL murder cases (malicious killing) and in ALL rape cases provided that DNA evidence can be used to convict the person BEYOND THE REASON OF A DOUBT!!! Mandate inmate education programs so that they don't have to return to a life of crime when they are released. We need to start working on fixing people, not limiting the rights of people to own inanimate objects.

    Sorry I got a little off topic but thats how I see this issue. Please feel free to respond, I'd like to hear your opinion.

    Are you serious........you mean to tell me that I'm not the only one who thinks this............

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Who Should Own Guns in America?
    Every able-bodied and able-minded citizen.
    Any mission, any conditions, any foe at any range.
    Twice the mayhem, triple the force.
    Ten times the action, total hardcore.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Wow....this target shooting is kind of cool.....and I can open carry...to think a few years ago I only used guns for armed robbery, shoot at other gang members, car jacking, abduction, even a rape or two here and there....maybe I should go for LTCF.....after all, I paid my debt to society right? I promise to be good from now on...you trust me.....right? Thank God for my prison sentence because I used a firearm in all of the above. Yeah I did it, but now that I'm out and Rehabilitated (right?), I don't have to steal guns or buy them on the street cause I paid my debt to society, I can strut into any shop and fill out a 4473 and have a means to do all that stuff again.....I mean, I promise, I'm not like the typical offender or ex-con....I will only do that stuff again with my legally owned firearm from paying my debt to society IF I can't find a job or anything and need money real quick.....I won't do it lot, just when I need easy cash, or if somebody pisses me off again...I promise I will only bust one cap in that cracker pig cop innocent citizen former rival gang member...oops, did I kind of fall back into my old ways.....it's okay though, I already paid my debt to society once.....I'll just pay nit back again, and again, and again........but I'll still be able to legally own my tool of my trade, I mean gun, in between paying each time....

    Thanks,

    Charlie Manson
    Legal gun owner
    “IF THE DEVIL COACHES NAVY ORDNANCE, THEN HELL IS THE ORDIES HOMEFIELD”

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    haha...I see your point!!! But you missed part of my post, the part about USING the death penalty!!! Charles Manson would be in prison for life under my plan (can't fry him without DNA or other physical evidence which proves beyond the reason of a doubt that he committed the crime). I'm saying we have criminalized to many things in these United States. Yes we do have a problem with repeat offenders, because we plea them out, let them go with a slap on the wrist, make prison like a hotel etc... But if you assaulted someone once when you were a 21 y.o.m. with some rather youthful indiscretion and maybe you messed the guy up pretty bad, got a felony charge for it (heck you can get that just for ATTEMPTING to hit a cop, paramedic or firefighter in PA) so now you have done a few months in the joint, gone through anger management counseling and one of your passions has always been the appropriate use of firearms (yes people who like guns sometimes commit crimes, it happens) but now the government says you cant defend yourself, you cant enjoy your sport and you don't have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms because of a mistake you made AND paid the debt to society for! That is not right, once the debt to society is paid your rights should be restored, END OF STORY!! Thanks for participating in the discussion.
    MOLON LABE

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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Ok one more quick post...I'm not scared of criminals having guns, thats the very reason I carry one, because I see it as reality and am taking responsibility for my own security. Criminals will find a way to get guns regardless of the laws we pass regulating purchase and ownership, so rather than criminalize ownership (which can deprive law abiding citizens of their RKBA) lets strengthen the penalties for VIOLENT CRIMES committed with guns (because that DOES violate peoples RIGHT to LIFE and security in their possessions/property). Ownership and regulation of purchase/possession/manufacture does NOTHING to make anyone safer. But we CAN and SHOULD punish those who victimize and infringe on the NATURAL RIGHTS inherent to each and every living person!!!

    I think that says it a little better.

    Oh and that whole punish those who victimize and infringe on the NATURAL RIGHTS of man, that includes those in power, when they pass and enforce laws which seek to take away from the "...laws of nature and natures God..." they ought to be punished, for they themselves have then done the same thing as any common criminal and that is to break the very laws which provide for the framework of society and the PROTECTION of those NATURAL rights guaranteed us by the "...laws of nature and natures God..." which as I stated above are inherent to each and every living person!!!
    Last edited by FromMyColdDeadHands; March 7th, 2008 at 11:52 PM.
    MOLON LABE

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Personally, I beleive that everyone who is not a violent criminal should be able to own a firearm. I don't want a wife-beater to own a firearm, let alone someone who has been convicted of a violent crime. Every law-abiding citizen should have the right to own one.

    I feel that in a sense, it is a right to own, but if you are convicted of a violent crime, you should not have the ability to own one ever again. Of course if they REALLY wanted a firearm they can still get them easy as hell...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by XUSNORDY View Post
    Wow....this target shooting is kind of cool.....and I can open carry...to think a few years ago I only used guns for armed robbery, shoot at other gang members, car jacking, abduction, even a rape or two here and there....maybe I should go for LTCF.....after all, I paid my debt to society right? I promise to be good from now on...you trust me.....right? Thank God for my prison sentence because I used a firearm in all of the above. Yeah I did it, but now that I'm out and Rehabilitated (right?), I don't have to steal guns or buy them on the street cause I paid my debt to society, I can strut into any shop and fill out a 4473 and have a means to do all that stuff again.....I mean, I promise, I'm not like the typical offender or ex-con....I will only do that stuff again with my legally owned firearm from paying my debt to society IF I can't find a job or anything and need money real quick.....I won't do it lot, just when I need easy cash, or if somebody pisses me off again...I promise I will only bust one cap in that cracker pig cop innocent citizen former rival gang member...oops, did I kind of fall back into my old ways.....it's okay though, I already paid my debt to society once.....I'll just pay nit back again, and again, and again........but I'll still be able to legally own my tool of my trade, I mean gun, in between paying each time....

    Thanks,

    Charlie Manson
    Legal gun owner
    I'm another in the camp that know that criminals have guns anyway so the restrictions are pointless. If the restrictions make soccer moms feel safer, whatever. A sufficient period of well supervised post-release probation (with no guns among the conditions until the probation is completed) is likely predictive enough to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of rehabilitation.

    If the Court does what it should and views gun rights as important as voting rights, free exercise of religion, free speech, etc., then the Soccer mom set will freak I guess. Gun rights could be restored to felons as are voting rights in many states. Go figure, people with violent felonies in their history can vote in many states -- do the ones not rehabilitated vote for gun control so their victims are disarmed?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Who Should Own Guns in America?

    every american thats not behind bars or currently on probation...

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