Help with Rem 700 accuracy

**ticker** · July 26th, 2009, 08:44 PM

I'm looking for help/suggestions for improving accuracy on a Remington 700 XCR, in 300 Win Mag.

This rifle has a 1:10" twist, factory 26-inch barrel, has been glass bedded and muzzle brake added. Using Zeiss optics and a Harris bipod.

I have been handloading 168gr Sierra MatchKings into Federal brass, experimenting with a range of powder weights of H4350 and Reloader 25, but am getting average group sizes of about 2-inches at 100 yards. My absolute best 5-shot group size, which happened only once, was about 7/8 inch, using 68.5gr of H4350.

I'm getting almost no consistency with tight groups, and I wonder if I should be using heavier bullets. Also, I'd like to experiment with Reloader 22 powder, which everyone seems to like, but can't find it in stock anywhere.

Shouldn't this rifle be more consistently accurate at 100 yards ?

**YBNORMAL** · July 26th, 2009, 11:41 PM

i have heard that you need to shoot 3-5 shot groups and let the barrel cool for 30min between groups. as the barrel heats up the groups will open up. I dont know much about handloading but what do you get with good factory ammo? Maybe try some of them and work your handloads from there.

just my .02

**Tomcat088** · July 27th, 2009, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by ticker

I'm looking for help/suggestions for improving accuracy on a Remington 700 XCR, in 300 Win Mag.

This rifle has a 1:10" twist, factory 26-inch barrel, has been glass bedded and muzzle brake added. Using Zeiss optics and a Harris bipod.

I have been handloading 168gr Sierra MatchKings into Federal brass, experimenting with a range of powder weights of H4350 and Reloader 25, but am getting average group sizes of about 2-inches at 100 yards. My absolute best 5-shot group size, which happened only once, was about 7/8 inch, using 68.5gr of H4350.

I'm getting almost no consistency with tight groups, and I wonder if I should be using heavier bullets. Also, I'd like to experiment with Reloader 22 powder, which everyone seems to like, but can't find it in stock anywhere.

Shouldn't this rifle be more consistently accurate at 100 yards ?

I hate quite a few questions, although I think this question might belong in the reloading section.

First off, what is your experience with big bore and magnum rifles? Are you wearing hearing protection while you're shooting this rifle? Even though you have a muzzle brake on the rifle, I really wonder if it's you flinching. It's VERY easy to do with magnum rifles, either from recoil becuase you're in a very light right. When you throw a muzzle brake on them, you get MUCH more noise, and sometimes even feel the pressure wave. It just makes me question the shooter first. Even factory ammunition doesn't usually shoot 2" groups at 100 yards. Have you shot any factory ammunition to see how it shoots? Have you worked over the trigger any? How heavy is it and does it have much creep?

I've had very good luck with H4350 and IMR4350 in .300 winmag and WSM. I've had some of the most accurate groups for my .300 WSM shot with Reloader 22, and I've never shot some Reloader 25.

The rifle SHOULD shoot better than 2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. It would helps us also to know what primers you are using. I'm curious about what kind of dies you are using, and your brass preparation. Are you deburring flash holes, are you neck turning, and you only neck sizing, or full length resizing, etc. The 168 SMK's are not my favorite bullets. If I was you I would consider shooting some 180 grain Nosler Ballistic tip or Accubonds. I LOVE the 190 grain Berger bullets, although they're quite a bit more expensive, and I'm not sure you want to get into them. Have you done a ladder test to find out where the node for the barrel is? Are you using dies where you can adjust the neck tension? What kind of OAL are you having with your reloads, are you jumping into the lands, touching, etc?

There is just a lot missing from this post for us to better answer the question. Have you chronographed the loads, and do you know what your standard deviation is on your reloads? Are you trickling the loads, or just throwing them? Have you checked to make sure that your scope is mounted tightly, and that nothing is loose? Have you checked to make sure your bipod was also tight? Are you loading the bipod when you shoot? Or are you shooting off of concrete and getting quite a bit of hop? As I stated before, I'm really wondering if you don't already have a flinch with such a light rifle, but there's lots of other factors to consider. How much dry firing have you done with the rifle?

As others have stated, with such a thin long barrel, you do have the potential to get it hot quickly with a .300 winmag. How much time are you taking in between each shot of the group? Do the groups open up in a particular order, is the stringing horizontal, vertical, or random? Are you sure that the barrel is free floated in the stock when it's sitting on the bipod and doesn't have a pressure point on the barrel? There's just a lot of things that can affect everything, so we need some more answers to answer this problem as best as we can.

**YBNORMAL** · July 27th, 2009, 02:40 AM

jeez tomcat......i bow to your superior knowledge!!!! want to teach me how to reload??

**ticker** · July 27th, 2009, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by YBNORMAL

i have heard that you need to shoot 3-5 shot groups and let the barrel cool for 30min between groups. as the barrel heats up the groups will open up. I dont know much about handloading but what do you get with good factory ammo? Maybe try some of them and work your handloads from there.

just my .02

Yes, the barrel does get very hot.

I've experimented with giving it more time to cool between 5-shot groups, but not as long as 30 minutes...more like 5 to 7 minutes. So far, it has not made much of a difference.

If barrel heating has that much effect on accuracy, wouldn't the first fired group be the tightest, getting progressively worse as more rounds are fired ? I'm not seeing that trend develop, even though the barrel does get very hot.

With factory ammo (Remington, Hornady), the groups probably averaged closer to 3 inches (at 100 yards).

A few weeks ago I was able to correct a vertical stringing problem by changing to a bushing type neck sizing die, which seemed to give more consistent neck tension on the bullets.

**Tomcat088** · July 27th, 2009, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by YBNORMAL

jeez tomcat......i bow to your superior knowledge!!!! want to teach me how to reload??

LOL, I don't know about superior reloading knowledge. There's quite a few people here who know everything that I just mentioned. I'm not in your area, but there are lots of us that are happy to help you reload. We just ogtta keep those posts in the reloading section. But sure, we'll help you out.

**YBNORMAL** · July 27th, 2009, 04:14 AM

Ok ill go over to reloading and look for a sticky about how to get started in reloading. If I cant find one ill start one up with my criteria.

**ticker** · July 27th, 2009, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Tomcat088

I hate quite a few questions, although I think this question might belong in the reloading section.

.

Tomcat088,
Let me take each of your questions one at a time:

-I hate quite a few questions, although I think this question might belong in the reloading section.
I considered asking this in the reloading section, but at this point, how can I be sure it's a reloading problem ? It might be a rifle problem or a problem with my shooting skills...

-First off, what is your experience with big bore and magnum rifles?
Not much experience. This is my first magnum rilfe, and I've had it for about 5 months now.

-Are you wearing hearing protection while you're shooting this rifle?
Yes, I am religious about hearing protection since I'm an audio engineer and depend on my hearing to make a living. Every time I shoot I wear both earplugs and deadphones.

-Even though you have a muzzle brake on the rifle, I really wonder if it's you flinching. It's VERY easy to do with magnum rifles, either from recoil becuase you're in a very light right. When you throw a muzzle brake on them, you get MUCH more noise, and sometimes even feel the pressure wave.
I suppose I could be flinching, but I do practice dry firing with a rail-mounted laser sight projected on to a wall. And with the double hearing protection, the added sound pressure from use of a muzzle brake is minimal.

-Have you shot any factory ammunition to see how it shoots?
Yes, I've tried different 180gr factory ammo from Hornady and Federal. My groupings are slightly worse than with my handloads; about 3 to 4 inch groupings at 100 yards.

- Have you worked over the trigger any? How heavy is it and does it have much creep?
No. The trigger felt very nice right out of the box, so I didn't mess with it. I don't notice any creep at all, and I'm guessing it's in the ballpark of a 3 lb pull. I haven't measured it, but I can tell it's less pull than the Timney 4 lb trigger on my AR-15.

-I've had very good luck with H4350 and IMR4350 in .300 winmag and WSM. I've had some of the most accurate groups for my .300 WSM shot with Reloader 22, and I've never shot some Reloader 25.
I've heard good things about Reloader 22 from a lot of people. I just can't find any in stores, online, at gunshows.

-It would helps us also to know what primers you are using.
Winchester Large Rifle (WLR) primers.

-I'm curious about what kind of dies you are using, and your brass preparation. Are you deburring flash holes, are you neck turning, and you only neck sizing, or full length resizing, etc.
I'm using Redding Type-S bushing neck sizers, and competition seating dies. I only neck size, unless the cases won't fit into the Wilson 300WM case gauge, then I full length size. I am deburring flash holes, not neck turning (but measuring less than 0.003 runout on all final loads).

-The 168 SMK's are not my favorite bullets. If I was you I would consider shooting some 180 grain Nosler Ballistic tip or Accubonds. I LOVE the 190 grain Berger bullets, although they're quite a bit more expensive, and I'm not sure you want to get into them.
I have recently purchased, but not yet handloaded, 175gr, 180gr and 190gr Sierras. Larger calibers were the next thing on my list to test.

-Have you done a ladder test to find out where the node for the barrel is?
Not familiar with the ladder test. Can you explain ?

- Are you using dies where you can adjust the neck tension?
I use bushing dies, and so far have been using a 0.336 inch bushing, but have a 0.335 inch ordered. Note that since I started using the neck bushing dies about three weeks ago, I no longer have the vertical stringing I was seeing before. My groups don't show any horizontal or vertical bias.

___________________________________________
...at this point, I'll need to answer your remaining questions when I get back in town later today. I don't have my handloading documentation with me right now.

**montana_jeepn** · July 27th, 2009, 11:33 AM

Whenever I am having accuracy issues, I ask one or two of my friends who I know to be good shooters to try my rifle and see if they are shooting similar groups. This way I eliminate myself as the problem before I try more expensive options. (re-crowning, re-barreling, new trigger, etc)

**SharpShooter88** · July 27th, 2009, 01:06 PM

Also I KNOW you have an awesome scope on that rifle...Zeiss's cheapest stuff is far more expensive than anything I own as far as optics go. But do not think for a second that it isn't possibly your scope. Is it loose, I know those mag loads can be real rough on scope. Do you have good rings? Etc... Check all the dumb stuff before you drive yourself insane trying to throw more money at it with no additional increase in accuracy. I am a budget shooter so I ALWAYS check the dumb shit first...Just a thought...Not saying you didn't already. I own a remmy 700 in .30-06 and I get better groups than that out of a completely stock rifle with factory loads.