glock sight picture

[glockmaster]

Hi, just wanna get better at shooting my glocks and I was hoping for some advice regarding sight picture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but its top of front sight aligned with the top of the rear sight, concentrating on the front sight with that in focus and of course a proper trigger pull.

Imagine I'm just using the stock sights. My question is say I was aiming for the bullseye on a target, would I aim in a way that the white dot on the front sight covers the bullseye?, the top of the front sight in the middle of the bullseye? That kind of thing. Any input from experienced glock shooters would be appreciated. I'm just not happy with my accuracy, especially from the 15-20 yard range.

Going to the range tomorrow for some more practice as I have been itching to get there for the last two weeks. Thanks!

Yeah Yeah I know my screen name..its just a name. I'm "in the process of becoming a master.. LOL

P.S. I hope this is the proper section for the question.

[andrewjs18]

Here's a visual image...

[LittleRedToyota]

different guns/sights are designed to use different sight pics--and different people like different sight pics. with a "6 o'clock" sight pic, you hold the top of the front sight just below where you want it to hit (i.e. at 6 o'clock). with some guns/sights, you cover the spot you want to hit with the front dot (sometimes called a "center hold" or "dead on" sight pic).

stock glocks do not have vertically adjustable sights, so you can't change that...you have to figure out where yours hits and then adjust where you aim (or change the sights). (as far as i know, glocks are supposed to have a center hold sight pic from the factory.)

however, for a pistol, unless you are doing competitive bulls-eye shooting or something, i would argue it doesn't matter. you aren't going to be precise enough with your shots for the sight pic you are using to really make a difference. assuming you do your part and the gun is sighted in, the bullet either lands on the portion of the target being covered by the dot or on the portion of the target right at the top of the front sight. at typical handgun ranges, this is a matter a couple inches at most. yeah, if you are trying to instantly capacitate someone by precisely hitting the brain stem, that would matter. if you are shooting COM, it really doesn't. if you are trying to hit exactly on the X for bulls-eye shooting, it matters. if you are just trying to hit the A zone of an IPSC target it doesn't matter very much.

very few people actually shoot precisely enough for it to come into play in defensive or practical shooting.

you say you are not happy with your accuracy, but what does that really mean and how should it be addressed?

are your shot groupings tight enough that you can even tell from shooting it whether your gun dictates using a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold (in other words, can you figure out where your point of impact is relative to your point of aim)?

if not, the first thing you need to do is work on your shooting skills until you get to the point where you are making one ragged hole. then you will be able to tell where your point-of-impact is relative to point-of-aim. then you can figure out if your gun is set up for a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold sight pic. then you can go from there if you still think it really matters.

if you are not happy because your shots are not tightly grouped, whether to use a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic is way down on the list of concerns, imho. you need to work on trigger press, etc. first.

if you are not happy because your shots are all going the same place, then you should be able to tell where you need to place the sights to get the bullets to go where you want them to. and then you can adjust your sights so the gun is set up for either a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic based on your preferences. (again, with stock glock sights, though, it is not possible to adjust the vertical sight pic without replacing the rear sight.)

just my two cents.

(note: the sight pics shown in the post above this one are 6 o'clock...or, at least, the second one is. i guess the first is as well with the target being the heart. i don't think that is the sight pic glocks are typically set up for from the factory, but i could be wrong.)

also, note that the bullet does not fly in a straight line, so where you need to hold your sights vertically actually depends on how far away the target is (as the bullet travels in an arc). at typical handgun ranges, though, this doesn't really come into play unless you are doing very precise shooting, though.

[glockmaster]

different guns/sights are designed to use different sight pics--and different people like different sight pics. with a "6 o'clock" sight pic, you hold the top of the front sight just below where you want it to hit (i.e. at 6 o'clock). with some guns/sights, you cover the spot you want to hit with the front dot (sometimes called a "center hold"sight pic).

stock glocks do not have vertically adjustable sights, so you can't change that...you have to figure out where yours hits and then adjust where you aim (or change the sights). (as far as i know, glocks are supposed to have a center hold sight pic from the factory.)

however, for a pistol, unless you are doing competitive bulls-eye shooting or something, i would argue it doesn't matter. you aren't going to be precise enough with your shots for the sight pic you are using to really make a difference. assuming you do your part and the gun is sighted in, the bullet either lands on the portion of the target being covered by the dot or on the portion of the target right at the top of the front sight. at typical handgun ranges, this is a matter a couple inches at most. yeah, if you are trying to instantly capacitate someone by precisely hitting the brain stem, that would matter. if you are shooting COM, it really doesn't. if you are trying to hit exactly on the X for bulls-eye shooting, it matters. if you are just trying to hit the A zone of an IPSC target it doesn't matter very much.

very few people actually shoot precisely enough for it to come into play in defensive or practical shooting.

you say you are not happy with your accuracy, but what does that really mean and how should it be addressed?

are your shot groupings tight enough that you can even tell from shooting it whether your gun dictates using a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold (in other words, can you figure out where your point of impact is relative to your point of aim)?

if not, the first thing you need to do is work on your shooting skills until you get to the point where you are making one ragged hole. then you will be able to tell where your point-of-impact is relative to point-of-aim. then you can figure out if your gun is set up for a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold sight pic. then you can go from there if you still think it really matters.

if you are not happy because your shots are not tightly grouped, whether to use a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic is way down on the list of concerns, imho. you need to work on trigger press, etc. first.

if you are not happy because your shots are all going the same place, then you should be able to tell where you need to place the sights to get the bullets to go where you want them to. and then you can adjust your sights so the gun is set up for either a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic based on your preferences. (again, with stock glock sights, though, it is not possible to adjust the vertical sight pic without replacing the rear sight.)

just my two cents.

Yeah, I think that is what I'm getting at. I'm not keeping groups tight, so maybe I do need to concentrate on that trigger pull more.

[andrewjs18]

Yeah, I think that is what I'm getting at. I'm not keeping groups tight, so maybe I do need to concentrate on that trigger pull more.

dry firing can help with the whole sight picture alignment and clean trigger pulls...

I generally try to dry fire as much as possible.

[LittleRedToyota]

I'm not keeping groups tight, so maybe I do need to concentrate on that trigger pull more.

yep, your issue is not the sights.

one of the first steps is to think of it as a trigger *press* rather than trigger *pull*. you want your finger to move by itself (don't want your hand to move also--which is why i have an issue with calling it a trigger squeeze as many people do) and you want it to move straight back and not cause the gun to move at all (do not disturb the sight pic). it should be more like pushing a button than pulling on anything.

practice dry firing (pressing the trigger at home without any ammo...make sure you triple check that the gun is unloaded and still make sure it is pointed in a safe direction if a bullet did happen to come out of the muzzle) a lot before live firing. you should get to the point where you can balance a coin on the front sight and dry fire without the coin falling off.

however, before even doing that, i would suggest taking a course (or just informal instruction) from someone who really knows how to shoot a handgun well. it is hard to describe it in words, but you need to understand the fundamentals of the grip (where to grip the gun, how much pressure to exert with each hand, etc.), the trigger press, the sight pic, etc.

if you practice a lot before learning proper fundamentals, you will only ingrain bad habits and make it harder to learn to shoot well later. practice does not make perfect...practice makes permanent. only perfect practice makes perfect. but you have to know what "perfection" (or at least good enough) is before you can practice it.

there are some write-ups out the on the internet that actually do a fairly good job of describing it, but it is still better to have someone who knows what they are doing there with you at first so they can watch to see what you are doing wrong and help you correct it.

if you do look for write-ups, make sure the source is reputable...someone like brian enos, todd jarrett, etc.

if you do enough research you will likely uncover a debate between weaver vs. iso, thumbs down vs. thumbs forward, etc. etc. i prefer a iso stance with a thumbs forward, support wrist locked down, neutral grip with most of the pressure of the grip coming from the support hand. this is the dominant shooting style in IPSC/IDPA, etc. these days. however, there are some very good shooters who use weaver with a push-pull, sometimes thumbs locked down, grip. either can work well, but you need to come to understand the differences (and pros and cons) and how to do at least one of them correctly.

[markheck1]

different guns/sights are designed to use different sight pics--and different people like different sight pics. with a "6 o'clock" sight pic, you hold the top of the front sight just below where you want it to hit (i.e. at 6 o'clock). with some guns/sights, you cover the spot you want to hit with the front dot (sometimes called a "center hold" or "dead on" sight pic).

stock glocks do not have vertically adjustable sights, so you can't change that...you have to figure out where yours hits and then adjust where you aim (or change the sights). (as far as i know, glocks are supposed to have a center hold sight pic from the factory.)

however, for a pistol, unless you are doing competitive bulls-eye shooting or something, i would argue it doesn't matter. you aren't going to be precise enough with your shots for the sight pic you are using to really make a difference. assuming you do your part and the gun is sighted in, the bullet either lands on the portion of the target being covered by the dot or on the portion of the target right at the top of the front sight. at typical handgun ranges, this is a matter a couple inches at most. yeah, if you are trying to instantly capacitate someone by precisely hitting the brain stem, that would matter. if you are shooting COM, it really doesn't. if you are trying to hit exactly on the X for bulls-eye shooting, it matters. if you are just trying to hit the A zone of an IPSC target it doesn't matter very much.

very few people actually shoot precisely enough for it to come into play in defensive or practical shooting.

you say you are not happy with your accuracy, but what does that really mean and how should it be addressed?

are your shot groupings tight enough that you can even tell from shooting it whether your gun dictates using a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold (in other words, can you figure out where your point of impact is relative to your point of aim)?

if not, the first thing you need to do is work on your shooting skills until you get to the point where you are making one ragged hole. then you will be able to tell where your point-of-impact is relative to point-of-aim. then you can figure out if your gun is set up for a 6 o'clock sight pic or a center hold sight pic. then you can go from there if you still think it really matters.

if you are not happy because your shots are not tightly grouped, whether to use a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic is way down on the list of concerns, imho. you need to work on trigger press, etc. first.

if you are not happy because your shots are all going the same place, then you should be able to tell where you need to place the sights to get the bullets to go where you want them to. and then you can adjust your sights so the gun is set up for either a 6 o'clock or center hold sight pic based on your preferences. (again, with stock glock sights, though, it is not possible to adjust the vertical sight pic without replacing the rear sight.)

just my two cents.

(note: the sight pics shown in the post above this one are 6 o'clock...or, at least, the second one is. i guess the first is as well with the target being the heart. i don't think that is the sight pic glocks are typically set up for from the factory, but i could be wrong.)

also, note that the bullet does not fly in a straight line, so where you need to hold your sights vertically actually depends on how far away the target is (as the bullet travels in an arc). at typical handgun ranges, though, this doesn't really come into play unless you are doing very precise shooting, though.

Very Informative

It seems I must spread some around......

[GHogHarvester]

Mine must be broken, all I see is a little red dot.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[glockmaster]

yep, your issue is not the sights.

one of the first steps is to think of it as a trigger *press* rather than trigger *pull*. you want your finger to move by itself (don't want your hand to move also--which is why i have an issue with calling it a trigger squeeze as many people do) and you want it to move straight back and not cause the gun to move at all (do not disturb the sight pic). it should be more like pushing a button than pulling on anything.

practice dry firing (pressing the trigger at home without any ammo...make sure you triple check that the gun is unloaded and still make sure it is pointed in a safe direction if a bullet did happen to come out of the muzzle) a lot before live firing. you should get to the point where you can balance a coin on the front sight and dry fire without the coin falling off.

however, before even doing that, i would suggest taking a course (or just informal instruction) from someone who really knows how to shoot a handgun well. it is hard to describe it in words, but you need to understand the fundamentals of the grip (where to grip the gun, how much pressure to exert with each hand, etc.), the trigger press, the sight pic, etc.

if you practice a lot before learning proper fundamentals, you will only ingrain bad habits and make it harder to learn to shoot well later. practice does not make perfect...practice makes permanent. only perfect practice makes perfect. but you have to know what "perfection" (or at least good enough) is before you can practice it.

there are some write-ups out the on the internet that actually do a fairly good job of describing it, but it is still better to have someone who knows what they are doing there with you at first so they can watch to see what you are doing wrong and help you correct it.

if you do look for write-ups, make sure the source is reputable...someone like brian enos, todd jarrett, etc.

if you do enough research you will likely uncover a debate between weaver vs. iso, thumbs down vs. thumbs forward, etc. etc. i prefer a iso stance with a thumbs forward, support wrist locked down, neutral grip with most of the pressure of the grip coming from the support hand. this is the dominant shooting style in IPSC/IDPA, etc. these days. however, there are some very good shooters who use weaver with a push-pull, sometimes thumbs locked down, grip. either can work well, but you need to come to understand the differences (and pros and cons) and how to do at least one of them correctly.

Thanks that helps, I do dry fire, in fact i did today after posting my original post. Would the NRA basic pistol couse cover this?? I just figured it covered gun safety which, to me anyway, is common sense plus I was taught that from the age of 12 anyway. Its not exactly cheap, so I figured just practicing would be the best thing to do anyway, but you made some good points..

[LittleRedToyota]

Would the NRA basic pistol couse cover this??

i have not taken that class, but i think they do cover the fundamentals of shooting. they have another class that is called FIRST STEPS which is, i think, just about safety and the very, very basics of shooting. the "basic pistol" class, i think, is more of a "how to shoot correctly" class. there are definitely people on this forum who have taken that class as well as a few that teach it, so hopefully one of them will chime in.

another option would just be to find a member from here who is local to you and would be willing to spend a day at the range with you. (just make sure they actually do know what they are doing.) if you want to make a road trip to one of the PAFOA groups shoots held at PMSC (see the events subforum), there will be plenty of members who would be happy to help you out. (if he is there, seek out lycanthrope.) the group shoots happen once a month--on the second sunday of the month. PMSC is about 20 miles east of pittsburgh.

at any rate, even if you do end up having to pay for the training (and i do know what you mean about classes not being cheap), it really is worth it. i also grew up shooting but did not learn how to shoot a handgun properly as a kid. as an adult, i decided one day i wanted to become proficient at using a handgun for self defense and started by taking a course on basic pistol marksmanship. it made such a huge difference. the money was much better spent on the course than on ammo to practice. and then, when i did practice afterward, i got much, much more out of it...thus greatly increasing the value i have gotten from every round i've fired since then.

i cannot stress enough how much a quality course is worth the time and money. but, you do have to be careful about the instructor. make sure he has a good reputation. there are options other than the NRA courses, though i don't know your area. there is the FIRE institute near here...they run great classes--and a one day basic pistol class that only costs something like $45. but they are done with classes until next spring anyway.