Bringing Knives to a Gunfight

[unloved]

synergy and I started discussing the defensive use of edged weapons in the Gun Pictures forum yesterday. I didn't want to take Gary's THE Knife Thread off topic so here we are.

Most of us carry handguns on a daily basis. How many carry knives as well? I'm guessing most (or at least a lot) of us do that too. How many think of their knives as backup or last ditch weapons? Who's really thought hard about how you'd use a knife? Let's talk about it.

I think we need to be prepared for a situation where we might need something more than harsh words or empty handed strikes to maintain control of our handguns.

I'm no expert, but I've got about 24 hours of instruction in Modern Combative Systems' Inverted Edge Tactics under my belt. mercop has come up with a method that maximizes the potential of the relatively small knives people typically carry. I've learned a lot of incredibly valuable stuff from George. I've also been doing a lot of independent study and solo training for a while now.

For clarity's sake, here are some terms for those unfamiliar with the subject.
FGEO: Forward Grip Edge Out
^^^^This is the knife grip everyone is probably most familiar with.
FGEI: Forward Grip Edge In
RGEO: Reverse Grip Edge Out
^^^^ This is the 'icepick' grip you typically see in slasher movies.
RGEI: Reverse Grip Edge In
Trainer: A generic training 'knife', sometimes made of wood or plastic.
Drone: An unsharpened, rounded tip, duplicate of a particular 'live' knife.

I can post illustrative photos if anyone wants them.

I'm familiar with the SouthNarc material, and really get how useful it is in the FUT, or grappling range use. I've done a couple classes in Israeli stuff, and a couple in Sayoc Kali. I'm planning on really jumping into the Sayoc stuff, and I'm just gathering info at the point.

It looks like you're prepared to do committed training, so some of my thoughts won't apply to you.

As I said earlier RGEI, as a primary technique, seems overly specialized (for most people) to me. For people that only carry one knife and don't do a lot of training, I think either RG is too specialized. While I plan to, I have not trained with SouthNarc and I do not have a full understanding of his method. So, I may be wrong. I think we have to recognize that we're talking about pocket knives though.

...it seems that the effective strikes are more stabs than slashes...slashes not invoking as much of a pain response, nor being as lethal.

Most people are probably carrying a 4"(maximum) blade. I'm not convinced that stabbing with a 2"- 4" blade is a good idea. Even with a large knife, stabbing requires rather precise targeting to be effective. Slashing with anything less than a machete or sword seems to produce horrific but largely ineffectual wounds.

Realistically I'm viewing blades as the close range force solution where firearms are impractical, or useless. So loosing a little bit of range with RG doesn't bother me too much. Also, At the same time, I'm looking to select an offside blade for the old "gun grab" work, so I'm looking at something that is simpler (as I'm not expecting the same strength and motor functions with my offside as I am my dominant side) and balances deployment speed and carry comfort.

I'm examining the karambit, pikal usage folders (like the delica or maybe the p'kal), the KaBar TDI small, and small fixed blades with more wharncliffe type blades. Whatever I get I'll want a trainer to go with.

Right now I'm trying to decide on what trainers to buy to test out.

Drones are an absolute necessity. You can't train without them. Cold Steel, Kershaw, CRKT, Buck, Gerber, none of them make drones AFAIK. Emerson does, but they're expensive. Benchmade has a couple, but they're tip up carry only. I think tip down(for most applications) is better for several reasons. KaBar makes a TDI drone, but I wouldn't even consider carrying a TDI without specific training. It's a highly specialized knife.

IMO, Spyderco is the way to go. Most of their line is either Endura or Delica sized. So, you can get a reasonably priced drone that at least approximates what you actually carry. If you decide to get a P'kal, you can get a drone. They have the Waved models, so there's a lower cost alternative to the P'kal.

But I'm thinking RGEI for offsides, and RGEO or FGEO for my dominant side.

I carry several knives every day. Sounds like you do as well.With that in mind, I'd suggest FGEI for your dominant side. FGEI, and RG(I or O) for your reaction side.

I plan to use my Delica Wave RGEO to fill a specific, handgun retention, niche. The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that RGEO is just as limited as RGEI. I think it'll serve my needs better though. I have to examine practical application more closely.


__

[never_retreat]

Well without reading post and only to the title.
You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

I do however carry at leas one knife on a daily basis, occasionally two.
Which is more often then I usually carry a gun.
(See geographical location to understand)

[unloved]

You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Why not?

I do however carry at leas one knife on a daily basis, occasionally two.
Which is more often then I usually carry a gun.
(See geographical location to understand)

So your knife is your primary deadly force option. Yet you may be faced with having to defend yourself against a gun wielding attacker. Seems bringing a knife to a gunfight is your only choice.

[bullet]

i agree no knives at a gun fight. and i usually have both with me everyday its part of getting dressed in the morning.

[unloved]

i agree no knives at a gun fight. and i usually have both with me everyday its part of getting dressed in the morning.

I think we need to be prepared for a situation where we might need something more than harsh words or empty handed strikes to maintain control of our handguns.

Is a gun grab an impossibility? There's just no chance that you might be unable to use your gun?

[deafsmithco]

I have always carried a slip joint as a tool and only recently looked at a knives as a defense weapon. After reading Bill Bagwell's Bowies, Big Knives And The Best Of Battle Blades, I am convinced that a 9 1/2 inch or longer bowie of the proper design is the answer.I also know first hand they are not the easiest thing to carry.

Bill still believes that there is nothing better and some one trained correctly is unstoppable in a knife fight. For that training he recommends James Keating of ComTech.

I have been studying Dwight McLemore's work and also Keating's dvds. I know it is not actual hands on training, hopefully that will come, but it is a start.

[synergy]

i agree no knives at a gun fight. and i usually have both with me everyday its part of getting dressed in the morning.

That's one opinion...but many would argue it.

Once you get within arms reach...projectile weapons don't really shine anymore.
Knives don't jam, don't run out of ammo, they're more commonly carried by criminals, and they are always capable of cutting...there is no getting off the "line of fire" and being safe there.

*there are some real knife wounds shown in the video..so don't watch it if you don't want to*


What's shown in the video is not an attack from a knife guru...it's a basic prison rush from an aggressive dude that wants to make you dead.

This video isn't me trying to sell you Gabe and Marc' video...it's to show the speed and violence of what you might be facing...and how useless a firearm can be at that interval.

Here's some more video... How many nay-sayers have done this kind of training?

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283
http://www.vimeo.com/4349691

A "gunfight" means a fight between two individuals trying to kill each other, both armed with firearms. Do you think the criminal cares HOW you die? A firearm is only a tool, tools usually shine at a given usage... you don't cut wood with a hammer. When all you own is a hammer, you see everything as a nail. (forget where I heard that, but it's true) YOUR goal is to survive the fight. It's like rock, paper, scissors...every choice has it's weakness, and until you see what you're up against, how do you know if your 1 tool is the right one to have?

I would rather fight a guy with a gun at arms reach, than a guy with a knife at arms reach.

[crazywolf]

I carry two knifes my darrel ralph aftermath and a little boker. one has a 5 in blade the other 1 in while I would pefer to use my kimber desert warrior I do carry the aftermath as last ditch as said before when you up close and personal an your fighting to keep your handgun a knife is a good way to cut them off of you as to the way I would use it. any way that it takes to get the job done.the major differents at super close range is someone can grap your gun and lock it up and try tp pry it out of your hand don't think I they would try that with a knife. is an interesting question though and will be watching this thread to see what others think.crazywolf

[unloved]

as to the way I would use it. any way that it takes to get the job done.

Have you done any training? Especially force on force training as shown in the videos synergy posted? It can be a lot more difficult to get your "folder into the fight" than you might think.

[synergy]

As I said earlier RGEI, as a primary technique, seems overly specialized (for most people) to me. For people that only carry one knife and don't do a lot of training, I think either RG is too specialized. While I plan to, I have not trained with SouthNarc and I do not have a full understanding of his method. So, I may be wrong. I think we have to recognize that we're talking about pocket knives though.

Yeah, I'm planning on carrying 2 blades at a minimum. Small ones, but accessible in-fight, on either side.

Most people are probably carrying a 4"(maximum) blade. I'm not convinced that stabbing with a 2"- 4" blade is a good idea. Even with a large knife, stabbing requires rather precise targeting to be effective. Slashing with anything less than a machete or sword seems to produce horrific but largely ineffectual wounds.

Yup, I'm probably going to be hovering in the 3" range, maybe going a little shorter. It's been shown though that with the compression of the tissue you get with a stab wound...you can get another 2" more depth into the tissue, than the actual blade length.

There are LOTS of vital targets within 2-4" of the skin though. Throat, collarbone, brachial, femoral, corroded...tendons and major muscle groups can get severed and impede function at that depth (potentially eliminating their mobility and letting you flee, or diminishing the function of a weapon hand).

Drones are an absolute necessity. You can't train without them. Cold Steel, Kershaw, CRKT, Buck, Gerber, none of them make drones AFAIK. Emerson does, but they're expensive. Benchmade has a couple, but they're tip up carry only. I think tip down(for most applications) is better for several reasons. KaBar makes a TDI drone, but I wouldn't even consider carrying a TDI without specific training. It's a highly specialized knife.

Yep. I'm thinking tip up carry (waved) gets you a faster deployment, anyway...so I'm thinking that's the way I'd go either way, with FG or RG.

IMO, Spyderco is the way to go. Most of their line is either Endura or Delica sized. So, you can get a reasonably priced drone that at least approximates what you actually carry. If you decide to get a P'kal, you can get a drone. They have the Waved models, so there's a lower cost alternative to the P'kal.

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. I could get some Benchmade griptillians, which they have a trainer for, and wave them though. Not committed either way yet.

What I want to do is figure out whether I want to carry a karambit, small fixed, or more traditional folder...and then start training that method. I'm just trying to avoid buying a trainer in every style to figure it out.

I carry several knives every day. Sounds like you do as well.With that in mind, I'd suggest FGEI for your dominant side. FGEI, and RG(I or O) for your reaction side.

I usually have at least 2, but I'm not happy with their deployment speeds and abilities

I plan to use my Delica Wave RGEO to fill a specific, handgun retention, niche. The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that RGEO is just as limited as RGEI. I think it'll serve my needs better though. I have to examine practical application more closely.

What I like about the edge in, is how you can still do work even when you're tied up in a grapple. You're pulling with your core muscle groups, instead of trying to push away. You can roll your torso in towards your hands and get deep effective cuts.... example:


It basically keeps the tool working, even once you get in a clinch and have your hands around their back. Any blocking attempt they try and put up...you just snap your hand back in and open them up.

If all the attacker has to do is flinch and pull in to cut the shit out of your hands...you're probably not going to try it too many times (if you're still able to after the first time).

Just my limited understanding of REM (reverse edge methods). Like I said, I'm looking to get INTO this...I know very little about all of this.