Calico Liberty III with Kelly Grip

**dragonofpa** · February 2nd, 2008, 06:34 PM

Does anyone know if putting a second front grip on my Calico Liberty III (known as a "kelly grip") will either make this pistol a class II firearm (perhaps AOW) or will change its status from "firearm" (pistol) to something other than a firearm making it illegal to carry loaded in my car or concealed on or about my person?

**knight0334** · February 3rd, 2008, 09:34 AM

If a "kelly grip"(not sure what that is) is a vertical grip, adding one to the front of a "handgun" would make it into a AOW - new creation = $200 stamp.. So long as its properly tax stamped, it'd still meet the definition of a "firearm" under PA law - thus legal to carry concealed with your LTCF>

**dragonofpa** · February 3rd, 2008, 09:16 PM

Where can one find the definitions of AOW and such?

**bloomautomatic** · February 3rd, 2008, 11:08 PM

This is the best single source I've found for those sorts of definitions. Kinda dry, kinda boring - no pictures n'at, but it's everything you wanted to know.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wba...st/nfa_faq.txt

vince

**dragonofpa** · February 5th, 2008, 09:39 PM

Ok.

Assuming I have the gun in my possession (right now it is a standard pistol) and I order the factory kelly grip which is made mainly for the carbines but can essentially "snap-on" to the Pistol and gets secured with a couple factory screws with no trouble at all, what would be the proccess of getting a manufacturer of class II to make it AOW, instead of doing it myself so I can pay $5 instead of $200. I read JayBell's FAQ but it doesn't really address a situation like this, only one of buying a premade class II weapon from a dealer.

Any ideas or information?

Also, if I use ATF form I and make it myself (I realize it's $200 at that point) when it's done being "made" by me can I: a) unmake it myself since I made it (take the front grip off)? and b) do I dodge any of the paperwork or signatures doing it this way instead of AOW $5 stamp through a manufacturer FFL?

**JayBell** · February 5th, 2008, 10:29 PM

be aware that if you have the grip, AND the pistol, then the ATF could be asshats and try to prosecute for "constructive posession"...best let a friend hold it til you are done.

now, theres 2 ways to AOW your Calico:
1 Form 1, pay $200, got thru regular NFA paperwork stuff, and wait

2. Have a MFG register it FOR you, have him transfer it to you on a F4, pay a $5 AOW tx fee, plus whatever the MFG wants to do the papers....this generally isn't talked about, but I can recommend a MFG if that what ya want...via PM that is.

you avoid no paperwork or sigs doing it either way, either way will require the full paperwork process, sigs, tax, prints, etc, just one way will be cheaper.

further, both ways will require that certain info be engraved on the gun...so theres also no point in "unmaking" it, once its regged as an AOW its an AOW if you take the grip on or off, but its ONLY classified as an AOW if the gun had a forward grip...

**bloomautomatic** · February 5th, 2008, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by dragonofpa

Ok.
what would be the proccess of getting a manufacturer of class II to make it AOW, instead of doing it myself so I can pay $5 instead of $200.

It would be exactly that. You would need to find a manufacturer in your area and negotiate a price with them. They're gonna want paid for their time, so I don't think you're going to save the full $195.

Originally Posted by dragonofpa

Also, if I use ATF form I and make it myself (I realize it's $200 at that point) when it's done being "made" by me can I: a) unmake it myself since I made it (take the front grip off)? and b) do I dodge any of the paperwork or signatures doing it this way instead of AOW $5 stamp through a manufacturer FFL?

The Form 1 process and Form 4 process are the same - you file 2 copies, with signatures from the CLEO and 2 sets of fingerprints. You can 'unmake' it yourself so it is no longer an AOW. At that point you would need to contact ATF so they can remove it from the registry. At that point it goes back to being a regular pistol.

If you're going to go through all this and you're paying the $200, you may want to consider just making it a Short Barreled Rifle. That way you can add a folding shoulder stock and I think the front grip is still allowable.

I personally don't see the advantage of the vertical foregrip outweighing the hassle of doing all the forms, signatures, and such, but that's just me.

Vince