FFL Holder buying out of state

[tacticalreload]

I have searched for an answer to this and every time it is asked anywhere, the conversation seems to get derailed off topic.

Suppose I have an FFL (am licensed by the ATF at an address in PA) and I travel on vacation to another state. While I am there, I either go to a gun show or store and find something that I wanted to BUY. Can I provide a copy of my FFL to the dealer selling the handgun and have him transfer possession to me in the same manner that I would if he shipped it to me instead? In other words, does he have to actually ship it back to PA or can he just sell it to me directly while I am there and allow me to physically walk out with it?

To muddy the waters a bit, suppose that the address on my FFL is the same as on my PA driver's license but my FFL is a business with a business name (and my personal name is not on the FFL). For example, my name is John Smith and I live at 123 Main Street, Anytown, PA 11111… my FFL lists "Guns Guns Guns Inc." at 123 Main Street, Anytown, PA 11111. Would this change matters?

thanks in advance!

[ScotsGuards]

Ok. Your commercial FFL allows you to BUY ANYWHERE. Just the same as you were buying inventory from a wholesaler in another state. Anytime I travel I always take a supply of FFL copies and cash. I have bought guns in shops and at shows in: Md., Va., Oh., Ky., Mo., Ok., and WV. Just make sure you have a current ID with you as some FFLs (such as myself) like to be sure a stranger with the FFL they don't know actually is the FFL holder. As for the address difference, many FFL's home address is different from their shop's address.

Now on the other hand; your FFL only allows you to SELL in the state you are licensed in. So you can't go traveling all around the US selling modern firearms as you go. To do that you must ship any firearms to an FFL if showing them out-of-state AFTER the sale is made. ATF regulations only allow an out-of-state dealer to sell C&R eligible arms and have and FFL do a transfer in the state in question.

Example: FFL from Pa. sets-up at a gun show in Va. He can buy all the guns he wants. Any modern firearms he sells MUST be then taken back to Pa. then shipped to a transferring dealer in Va. If the Pa. dealer sells C&R eligible firearms he MAY transfer those to a Va. FFL at the show and they may be transferred according to Va. laws.

It's silly and confusing but it is the way the regulations work. I know more than one FFL who has run afoul of the out-of-state transfer snafu to varying degrees of unpleasantness from the ATF.

I hope this helps.

[tl_3237]

Ok. Your commercial FFL allows you to BUY ANYWHERE. Just the same as you were buying inventory from a wholesaler in another state. Anytime I travel I always take a supply of FFL copies and cash. I have bought guns in shops and at shows in: Md., Va., Oh., Ky., Mo., Ok., and WV. Just make sure you have a current ID with you as some FFLs (such as myself) like to be sure a stranger with the FFL they don't know actually is the FFL holder. As for the address difference, many FFL's home address is different from their shop's address.

Now on the other hand; your FFL only allows you to SELL in the state you are licensed in. So you can't go traveling all around the US selling modern firearms as you go. To do that you must ship any firearms to an FFL if showing them out-of-state AFTER the sale is made. ATF regulations only allow an out-of-state dealer to sell C&R eligible arms and have and FFL do a transfer in the state in question.

Example: FFL from Pa. sets-up at a gun show in Va. He can buy all the guns he wants. Any modern firearms he sells MUST be then taken back to Pa. then shipped to a transferring dealer in Va. If the Pa. dealer sells C&R eligible firearms he MAY transfer those to a Va. FFL at the show and they may be transferred according to Va. laws.

It's silly and confusing but it is the way the regulations work. I know more than one FFL who has run afoul of the out-of-state transfer snafu to varying degrees of unpleasantness from the ATF.

I hope this helps.

At first I was dubious that a transfer could not be made from the visiting out-of-state FFL to an in-state FFL. A little research confirmed what you said and, yes, is does seem silly - but nonetheless it is the ATF's interpretation of the statutes.

Thanks for that little tidbit --rep sent

(F13) What may a licensed dealer
do at an out-of-State gun show?
A licensed dealer may sell and deliver
curio or relic firearms to another
licensee at an out-of-State gun show.
With respect to other firearms transactions,
a licensed dealer may only
display and take orders for firearms at
an out-of-State gun show. In filling
any orders for firearms, the dealer
must return the firearms to his or her
licensed premises and deliver them
from that location. Any firearm ordered
by a nonlicensee must be delivered
or shipped from the licensee's
premises to a licensee in the purchaser's
State of residence, and the
purchaser must obtain the firearm
from the licensee located in the purchaser’s
State. Except for sales of
curio or relic firearms to other licensees,
sales of firearms and simultaneous
deliveries at the gun show,
whether to other licensees or to nonlicensees,
violate the law because the
dealer would be unlawfully engaging
in business at an unlicensed location.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(1), (b)(3), 923(a) and (j)]

ATF Publication 5300.4
Revised September 2005

[tacticalreload]

Ok. Your commercial FFL allows you to BUY ANYWHERE. Just the same as you were buying inventory from a wholesaler in another state. Anytime I travel I always take a supply of FFL copies and cash. I have bought guns in shops and at shows in: Md., Va., Oh., Ky., Mo., Ok., and WV. Just make sure you have a current ID with you as some FFLs (such as myself) like to be sure a stranger with the FFL they don't know actually is the FFL holder. As for the address difference, many FFL's home address is different from their shop's address.

Now on the other hand; your FFL only allows you to SELL in the state you are licensed in. So you can't go traveling all around the US selling modern firearms as you go. To do that you must ship any firearms to an FFL if showing them out-of-state AFTER the sale is made. ATF regulations only allow an out-of-state dealer to sell C&R eligible arms and have and FFL do a transfer in the state in question.

Example: FFL from Pa. sets-up at a gun show in Va. He can buy all the guns he wants. Any modern firearms he sells MUST be then taken back to Pa. then shipped to a transferring dealer in Va. If the Pa. dealer sells C&R eligible firearms he MAY transfer those to a Va. FFL at the show and they may be transferred according to Va. laws.

It's silly and confusing but it is the way the regulations work. I know more than one FFL who has run afoul of the out-of-state transfer snafu to varying degrees of unpleasantness from the ATF.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. It confirms what I thought was the case. Now, as someone who has done this many times before, do you ever get any dealers who balk at it and just refuse to perform the transaction? I don't think I'll be getting to any gun shows while I'm away, but I might go into some shops; and you never know what you might find. I'd hate to have to pay the guy a shipping charge just so he can send it to my address instead of allowing me to walk out with it.

Also, I'm guessing that they aren't supposed to be charging you their state / local sales tax, correct?

As an FFL who mostly handles minor gunsmithing and out-of-state transfers for locals, I have never had another FFL request to receive a firearm in person. I'd probably be a bit concerned that this guy is really the dealer and not just someone who got a hold of an FFL and is running around trying to grab up guns off the books. In my case, I think that it should be obvious that I'm the right person since my PA DL address matches my FFL address.