New Remington 700 plans

[Das Nemesis]

After taking in everything that has been said i have come up with this for my new rifle plan:

Base:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700842073.html
http://www.remington.com/products/fi...el_700_SPS.asp

Optics:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/p...4&categoryID=5

Another consideration, since i dont mind weight, would be this:
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/jae700rsa.htm

Goal:
Zero @ 200 yards
Rounds: 160-170 grain @ roughly 2900-3000fps(i am still unsure of this due to not using them yet)

i would like to have the rifle set for its zero at 200 yards, allowing it to be only 1" or less high at 100 yards, while without any adjustments, i could hit a target out at 300 yards. obviously not counting in wind, however that is something that is different from day to day, so there is no one set that you can do to accommodate for wind.

something i am thinking about is this however:

what are some good aftermarket drop in barrels to replace stock? or is the stock barrel on the tactical edition a good enough quality to where a after market would make very little difference? the stock barrel has a 1:12 RH twist throughout its 20" length, and it is a nice heavy barrel.
for .308 is 1:12 a good twist ratio or would there be a better option?

my normal operation and focus for this weapon is to have it be very easy and quick to operate in a fast manner in medium range sharp shooting situations, however i would like it to be able to hit out at 1000 yards once i develop the personal skill to achieve these shots. again, would this weapon setup stock allow me enough accuracy and consistency to achieve this goal?


another thing i am considering is spending the extra money and getting the rifle in .338 Lapua magnum, i believe this round is FAR superior to the .308 on every level.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-97022.html

would this be the .338 lapua magnum?

also, since .338 lapua is a very expensive round, i was also looking at .300 win mags.

[Tomcat088]

After taking in everything that has been said i have come up with this for my new rifle plan:

Base:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700842073.html
http://www.remington.com/products/fi...el_700_SPS.asp

Optics:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/p...4&categoryID=5

Another consideration, since i dont mind weight, would be this:
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/jae700rsa.htm

Goal:
Zero @ 200 yards
Rounds: 160-170 grain @ roughly 2900-3000fps(i am still unsure of this due to not using them yet)

i would like to have the rifle set for its zero at 200 yards, allowing it to be only 1" or less high at 100 yards, while without any adjustments, i could hit a target out at 300 yards. obviously not counting in wind, however that is something that is different from day to day, so there is no one set that you can do to accommodate for wind.

something i am thinking about is this however:

what are some good aftermarket drop in barrels to replace stock? or is the stock barrel on the tactical edition a good enough quality to where a after market would make very little difference? the stock barrel has a 1:12 RH twist throughout its 20" length, and it is a nice heavy barrel.
for .308 is 1:12 a good twist ratio or would there be a better option?

my normal operation and focus for this weapon is to have it be very easy and quick to operate in a fast manner in medium range sharp shooting situations, however i would like it to be able to hit out at 1000 yards once i develop the personal skill to achieve these shots. again, would this weapon setup stock allow me enough accuracy and consistency to achieve this goal?


another thing i am considering is spending the extra money and getting the rifle in .338 Lapua magnum, i believe this round is FAR superior to the .308 on every level.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-97022.html

would this be the .338 lapua magnum?

also, since .338 lapua is a very expensive round, i was also looking at .300 win mags.

I think that you have chosen the a good starter rifle to begin from, although eventually you'll probably want to change the stock. You already didn't like my suggestion about optics, so I'm not going to comment on them. The scope isn't even in production yet, so nobody can really say much about it; other than the other trijicon products have been top knotch.

That's quite an interesting stock that you posted up from J Allen Enterprises is interesting because I've never seen it before. It's new enough that the patent is still pending on it, and that's awesome. It looks like a pretty interesting stock, although for the price, many people are gonna say go with a McMillan. The interesting thing about this stock is that it has a full length aluminum block, which means it's sturdy; although I don't know much about what they're using in terms of the "shell", so that's the part I'd be concerned about. If you wanted to get a McMillan to the same level, you'd be looking at spending more money. On the McMillan you'd have to pay the extra to have the adjustable cheekpiece and comb, to have the anschultz free rail installed, and it would still have to be pillar and glassed bedded to be at about the same place in terms of stability. Those things added onto a McMillan, would probably put you at about the price range of the stock you listed, BUT, You'd also have to buy some bottom DBM Metal like Badger, HS Precision, or JW Precision (Vbull). So you'd end up spending quite a bit more money to get a McMillan with all the features that this system has. For all the features, and even just the "tacticool" look, it's pretty impressive, but all of those things only apply if they have good control on their "shell" and it's durable. Either way, if you get one of these let me know how it holds up. You do realize that's just for the stock right? I just want to make sure.

Having a 200 yard zero is not a problem at all, but your drop expectations are probably not going to happen. Typically with the .308, there is a bit more drop than 1" between 100 and 200 yards. With a 200 yard zero, you might be able to get close, but it's probably going to be closer to 2-2.5" difference between 100-200 yards. Either way, with very little hold, it's easily possible to make hits from 100-300 yards with a 200 yard zero. As you get out to 300 yards, depending on where you're zero is and the rifle, you'll be getting another 2-3" more. You're expecting ALOT more velocity than you're going to get with the bullet weights that you're talking about, especially with factory match grade ammo. Here's a page that has some chronograph readings from different match ammunition makers. http://www.snipercentral.com/matchammo.htm . The black hills with a 168 SMK is gonna be pushing around 2,690 fps, and that's from a 26" barrel; you're going to have somewhere around 100-200 fps slower from the 20" barrel. With handloads out of a stock barrel and the bullet weights you're talking about, it's just not going to happen buddy. Even with hot handloads and a custom barrel, it might not happen either, that's pretty dang hot for a .308.

In regards to barrels, there is no such thing as a "drop in replacement" barrel on a Remington 700. There are actually very few rifles that you can do "switch barrel", unless you've had the barrel chambered just for your rifle and then you still have to properly headspace it. Headspacing between Remington varies a fair amount, and you'd also need a barrel vice and action wrench to do it on a Remington 700, plus the proper gauges. Either way, it's not really something that anybod is doing, especially not top end barrel makers. If you're interested in custom barrels that are gonna get expensive, and you're gonna need a competent smith to chamber, thread, crown, and headspace the barrels. While you're doing that, most people have the action squarred up and the lugs trued so that it fits the barrel how it should. It's not something that's really worth messing with on a "learner" rifle. You'd just be shooting out a barrel that you're working up to. I'd recommend to shoot out the barrel you got (it's more than accurate enough), and then you can get a custom barrel and really take advantage of it because you have your fundamentals down. Twist rate depends on lots of things, if you do a search on that subject, you'll find some more info. Basically it will depend on the weight and length of bullets that you want to shoot, the 1:12 at .308 velocities will work fine to the 170's and probably the 180's. You won't be able to shoot much heavier than that at all elevations, temperatures, velocities, and barometric pressures. In terms of reaching to 1K with that rifle stock, it may, or it may not. Going to 1,000 yards with a 20" barrel is doable, but you gotta have the velocity and with even some factory match ammunition, it's not doable. With handloads, it's definitely "doable" if the shooter is capable.

For long range shooting, the .338 is superior to the .308 in terms of range and ballistics. When you see the price of decent ammo for the .338, that's where it really hurts. You're looking at $5 PER ROUND, that's not a typo. I know you mentioned the cost, so it's something that you've done your homework on. You'll probably spend at least $40 just zero'ing the rifle, much less getting your drop at long ranges. Since you're trying to learn to shoot long distance, the recoil and cost will make it something that I'd not really consider. You'll learn to read the wind better with the .308, be able to practice more (= getting better), and be able to get match grade ammo easier. I like the .300 winmag, and in terms of ballistics it whoops the .308, and is much cheaper to shoot than the .338. Part of the problem in shooting the .300 winmag though is that there isn't much match grade ammunition available. You'd be having to handload, which you'd want to do anyway to take advange of some of the bullets like the Berger VLD's, etc. It's just not idea to learn on for lots of reasons. Besides not having much factory ammo available, the recoil from the .300 winmag will mean that you can't practice as much in one session and it'll be harder to develop good habits like good follow through, and not flinching. Hope that helps.

[Burnsie]

What he said.

Another downside to .300winmag is that you will have a shorter barrel life vs. non magnum rounds.

Also, most people that buy the 700's and plan on upgrading use the stock barrel to practice and get good, then they replace it when it's "worn out".


Snipers Hide Read these forums.

-Burnsie

[Das Nemesis]

that helps quite a bit, thanks

i do think i am going for the .308, price, recoil, and availability make it very appealing to me. id like to punish the target, not my self.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700257099.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700842073.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/rem_700varmint.html

comparing everything; price, stock barrel and length, trigger and cost to replace trigger - which would be the best choice?

the varmint has the best price but it seems quite bare...would i be better off just going for the 20" or 26" police? or do you think the barrel quality would be relatively the same?

you also answered my other question, i was looking into McMillan stocks...i was wondering if they would have been a better option than the J Allen, but after reading what you said i am going for the J Allen. i have read a few reviews on them and they are very nice stocks.

as far as the scope goes, i may go with this:
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...illum-reticle/

however if the trijicon, which i think it really is but its is quite recent so im not sure, then odds are i will go for that after a bit of research reading reviews and such.

[XD45]

another thing i am considering is spending the extra money and getting the rifle in .338 Lapua magnum, i believe this round is FAR superior to the .308 on every level.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-97022.html

would this be the .338 lapua magnum?

also, since .338 lapua is a very expensive round, i was also looking at .300 win mags.

That is a 338ultramag, which is different than 338lapua

[Fr0sty]

JAE Stocks,

Just an FYI on these stocks. They are very nice and are built pretty damn well. I will be sorting out an M14 build this summer using one to help round out my .308 collection. I have had a chance to play with an M14 build already using one of these and overall I was very please. Obviously, your rifle starts to become a tank, but well worth it really. IMO, Don't cheap the options, as I feel they help make the stock what it is.

[arrrrgh15]

I'm liking your choice so far.

I'd just get the rifle and shoot the piss out of it, then switch out the barrel and stock.

I didn't really read up on the JAE stock but it looks pretty damned interesting. The barrel channel contour is wide enough to accept a heavier contour barrel. This will be nice later on if you decide to switch out the factory barrel with a heavier stainless barrel. The detachable box mag is cool and I'm still kicking myself for not having spent the extra $$$ to get a badger DBM on mine. I'd pick up a few extra mags to go with it.

The trijicon scope is very, very new. You'll be the lab rat on this one if you decide to get it. The Leupold is another good choice and is in the same price range, and is tried and true.

As for your zero...I'd zero for 100 yards. 200 yards is only a small elevation knob adjustment away. Same goes for 300. Adjust your scope for the range. It's easy. POA/POI. You'll need to do it anyway to reach longer ranges so you might as well get used to it and practice.

In a pinch you can use your mildots for hold overs, but its not as precise because for the most part your eyeballing it.


Good luck.

[RONNIE77]

Go with a NightForce Scope.
They are not cheap, but you will not want anything else after you use it.

[Tomcat088]

that helps quite a bit, thanks

i do think i am going for the .308, price, recoil, and availability make it very appealing to me. id like to punish the target, not my self.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700257099.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700842073.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/rem_700varmint.html

comparing everything; price, stock barrel and length, trigger and cost to replace trigger - which would be the best choice?

the varmint has the best price but it seems quite bare...would i be better off just going for the 20" or 26" police? or do you think the barrel quality would be relatively the same?

you also answered my other question, i was looking into McMillan stocks...i was wondering if they would have been a better option than the J Allen, but after reading what you said i am going for the J Allen. i have read a few reviews on them and they are very nice stocks.

as far as the scope goes, i may go with this:
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...illum-reticle/

however if the trijicon, which i think it really is but its is quite recent so im not sure, then odds are i will go for that after a bit of research reading reviews and such.

I'm glad that the posts are finally helping, I wasn't trying to bash on you before, merely trying to help. The .308 is going to be the caliber that you want to go with to learn, and to be honest, may never deviate from.

In terms of the first 2, between the Tactical and the 700P, I'll say a few things about them. The barrels are going to be of a similar quality and probably the same accuracy. They will have a slightly different taper, and the big thing is whether or not you want a 20" barrel or a 26" barrel. If I'm not mistaken they're both 1:12" twist, so the main difference is the contour and length. Some people like the shorter barrel, they believe they're more rigid for the same weight, because they're thicker and shorter. Some people believe that because the bullet isn't in the barrel as long, then you have less time to move off of target. With good follow through, it shouldn't be a problem with any length. You won't get quite the velocity out of the 20" barrel that you will from the 26" barrel though, and to some people they like the velocity. In terms of handling, the 20" is much handier, although you will get used to long 26" guns and it may not bother you. I built my .300 WSM on a 26" barrel so I could get the extra velocity, I'm used to it and really like it, it's just a preference thing. In reality they will have a very similar finish, and probably shoot just as accurately as the other.

Now about the 700P, and the Tactical, here's where you'll have some options. With the 700P, the stock is pretty rigid and you'll probably never "need" to replace it, it's plenty stiff. It has a full length bedding block just like all the HS Precision and Bell & Carlson stocks, although I'm not sure if one of those companies makes that stock and isn't taking credit or what. Either way, it's comparable and basically the same thing. On the Tactical, it's a hogue stock and it's not quite as rigid. If you place the rifle on bipod, there is lots of documentation of the stock flexing enough so that the barrel isn't free floated anymore. This means that you'll eventually want to change the stock. There's about a $200 difference between these 2 stocks, and so this is where the debate comes in. You can get a Bell & Carlson medalist stock for between $200-225, and they're rock solid. So you could have the heavier contour barrel that is 20" long and in a stock that resembles something like the Bell & Carlson. If you like the stock on the 700P, then you'll basically have a 26" barrel in a slightly lighter contour, and you'll have the stock that you see there; which you may or may not like better than the Bell & Carlson. If you don't like the Bell & Carlson Medalist stocks, you're going to be jumping into the $300 or more range to go with an HS Precision, and even more to get into McMillan. So which base model you should get, will depend on which barrel length you want, and which stock you prefer.

Most of the Remington barrels will be pretty close to each other in terms of quality. I think there is another rifle that you should consider if you're considering the 700P. This is the Remington 5R, which many people have never heard of. The 5R is not listed on Remington's "civilian" page and I don't even think on their LE page. The 5R gets it's name because of it's rifling. The barrel has 5 grooves, and the rifling in the barrel is radiused. Rifling on normal Remington barrels is rectangular, with square edges. The 5R is milspec and used on the M24 sniper rifles. They say that the barrel has more even pressure curves, since there's less lands cutting into the bullet, there's less drag so you get higher velocities with the same powder charge. Now there have always been "fast barrels" and "slower barrels", this will vary between manufacturers and isn't really something that you can exactly grade a barrel on, even from the same manufacturer.

I do NOT want to come across as a McMillan hater, they make BEAUTIFUL comfortable stocks. The stocks are durable, and if one breaks on you, McMillan will replace it, they stand by their product and have PHENOMENAL customer service. You will have a fairly long lead time though, also to get a replacement if you break one. They say that you don't have to bed their rifle stocks because the inlet is so good, which is true the rifles will shoot well unbedded. With that said, I still don't know anybody that doesn't have McMillan stocks pillar and glass bedded. It's just something that most people feel needs to be done on a precision rifle for repeatability and consistency. that JAE stock has alot of options, it's expensive, but it's still cheaper than if you had McMillan put all the equivalent options into one of their stocks. As I said, my only concern would be the durability of their carbon fiber shell and how durable it is. I am not saying that it's bad, merely that I do not know. Frosty apparently has a little experience with them, and so that's good because he tells the truth.

The Leupold Mark 4 is one of the favored optics for tactical rifles. They're tried and true, repeatable, life time warranty, etc. I personally don't think they have the best glass for the money, but they do have their repeatability. There is a slight issue with some that drives people crazy, it's a parallax thing. As you're dialing UP in the parallax adjustment, it'll get into focus; but if you shoot, the parallax will actually be out of focus for the next shot because it slipped a little. If you dial up PAST the parallax, and then dial down to it, it won't slip when you shoot. I don't know why it's this way, but I've heard a LOT of respected LR shooter mention this issue, so it's just something you should know. Either way, the scope is good and will get the job done. I wasn't trying to bust on trijicon before, merely saying, I don't know anything about them; like all scopes, I'm sure they're gonna have some issues when they first start, but I'm sure that it's something they'll stand behind and make right. It still means that you don't exactly know what you're getting in terms of glass for the money. Other have mentioned Nightforce scopes; which are also awesome. I think for the higher end scopes (above Mark 4), they are some of the best bang for the buck. After that, the scopes get to costing ALOT more, and the gains get to be less and less. This isn't to downplay the AMAZING glass that some of these other manufacturers make, or the extreme durability and finish of their products; merely that you'll pay twice as much as a NF, and the view isn't necessarily gonna be twice as good. You could say the same about the Nightforce over the Leupold though, they're a fair amount more expensive, but they're not gonna look twice as good. As with anything, as you get higher and higher quality, they're good, but the yields become smaller and smaller to a point of novelty and not necessity. What I have consistently heard about the 5R barrels is that they consistently foul less than the other Remington barrels. This is nice and something that should be mentioned. The 5R also has a nice rigid stock that does NOT need to be replaced. As far as I know they all come with stainless steel fluted barrels (I believe 26") and they're just nice clean rifles. This may or may not be what you're looking for, but for about the same prices as the 700P it's something to also consider. I would probably take the 5R over the 700P, but they're usually a bit more difficult to find; so you might spend a bit more time getting your hands on one.

In terms of triggers, there are LOTS of options. Some people like the factory triggers after they've been cleaned up. If you will listen CAREFULLY, there are some of us here willing to help you do it. It may or may not dial down to how you want it to. The new X-Mark triggers are usually kind of hit and miss, some of them you can get to dial down and work perfectly; others no matter what you do to them, you can't get them to work. If you wanted a cheaper trigger, you could go with a rifle basix trigger. This entails respringing and changing up your stock trigger. They break nice and cleanly, but for some reason when dry firing them, they have this odd side to side wiggle play. If you have a round in the chamber though, they don't have that side to side play. For the same amount of money as the Rifle Basix, you can get a Shilen that is pretty much "drop in". They're a completely unit, but you will have to remove the safety (bar, etc), to place on the new trigger, although the safety internally is already installed, you just need the part that your thumb moves. I decided to give Shilen a try before I paid a bit more for a Timney or Jewell. I really like my Shilen, it breaks just as clean as Jewell's that are the same weight. The Jewell's are a bit easier to install because they have rivets that keep the whole trigger group together as you slip the pins back into it. All of these triggers have TONS of people that love them, and all of them will work. They have different widths of trigger shoes, which is why some people prefer one over another. Either way, they will all break clean, are nicely adjustable and very reliable. PS, not all Jewell triggers are what people think of that go on bench rifles and are at 2 ounces, they have triggers that are between 3 pounds and less. I hope that helps, and let all of us know if you have some other questions.

[Fr0sty]

Das,

Stock:
Being that your build is going to take a little while, you could wait on that stock (Which you should wait anyways) and I can let you know how it performs and how well they hold up. I hope to have mine in the some what near future, maybe in the next 2months or so, which will give you plenty of time to learn what you like/dislike about the stock 700 config, depending on when you purchase the rifle. Who knows, you may fall in love with it in a stock config other than some trigger work and maybe just a neat camo paint job for the hell of it.

To be totally honest, I am debating about going with a 700 build just to see how far I can get one to hit. Between feeding my other rifles, a nice 700 might be the way to go. I do need another Bolt, I mean, can you really have enough? Well, that's more of an impulse thought for now, but either way I will own a JAE in the near future, M14 or 700, maybe even both?


Optics:
As I stated before, I use a NF 5.5x22x56 for 1000m and I do pretty well. It's salty but does well. Now this next comment may have people screaming at me, but about 7 - 8 yrs ago (I think that was the time frame) I had a SA (Springfield Armory) 4x14x56 Govt issue that treated me damn good out to 600m (Longest range I had at the time). Some people will dump pretty hard on the SA scopes, and I am not saying they are some incredible scope, but I will say the one I mounted on my 700 was incredible. That being said, I found another one (Gen 1) that I picked up a few weeks ago that has just been mounted on one of my FALs which I hope will work as well as the one I once owned. I can let you know tomorrow as I will be out shooting all weekend. With that said, I can not diss a good Leu optic, so its hard to go wrong with them. I just typically chose other scopes than Leu's just to have something a little different. I don't go to rouge, as you will lose the knowledge of the community, but I don't like the "another sheep in the flock" idea. To each their own, but stick to the top names like the ones mentioned and you will be fine.

Triggers:
This is where I am a touch odd, well maybe not? Even though you can buy nice trigger groups/sets for pretty much anything these days, I still prefer to work them myself. I am sure you can buy better than I can do (I have better), but its just something that helps me with my confidence in my rifles. It's just something about taking it, and working it over to the point it is where I want it, exactly (as close as you can get it anyways). Also, doing myself, I save money, which translates into more ammo . The more time you spend with the rifle, the better you will know it, and to be honest that is something that will help you a great deal with longer shots. IMO you should know everything you can about the rifle you are shooting, as I feel that translates into more hits.


In the mean time, I need to drill this gas port on the shorty FAL as it is having a breathing problem before I head to the gun club tonight

PS> Das, I wanted to mention, this thread is exactly how you find good information. I am very glad to see you understood what we were saying. If you continue listening, you WILL be successful. I plan on following the threads as I am learning somethings from Tomcat myself. (You never stop learning in this hobby)