Police Stop over an empty holster in NJ

**NJEMTGUY3007** · December 2nd, 2009, 04:09 PM

Firstly, this isn't a news story but something I came across in the NJCSD (New Jersey coalition for self defense) Forums. I'm gonna put a link to the post here since anyone can just happen across it, but I'm going to leave the username out, you can read more at that site if you are interested. LINK: http://www.njcsd.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3563

Originally Posted by NJCSD Forum User

First things first , my apologies to the community as a whole for my abrupt " disappearance from the board for the last few months. Multiple circumstances , including lack of sleep and " free time " with the new baby recently converged and conspired to rob me of my usual posting. If anyone was alarmed or concerned over my seeming to fall off the face of the earth with no explanation , Im both touched and sorry for causing any alarm. Suffice to say , Im back , albiet probably not in the volume I was posting for the last year or so , least not till my son figures out how to get on the normal day/night sleeping cycle the rest of humanity uses.

Anyway , on to the meat of this post. Most of you know by now I've been actively open carrying an empty holster in the Peoples Socialist Republic of NJ for over 6 months now as a political statement over NJ's absurd gun laws. By and large it has been a relatively benign undertaking , a handful of questions and or comments by the general public , all ending in a good fashion and acheiving my objective of getting people to start thinking about the issue. I always knew it was an undertaking that at somepoint was certain to draw some sort of attention from the police , and tonite it finally happened!

I was out with my 5 yr old daughter doing some shopping at the local Wally World , of course with my holster in plain view. Since Black Friday they have had local officers posted at the doors , Im presuming for possible crowd control , to deter parking lot crime and shoplifiting etc. They dont " rove " the store at all , just stand post by the doors. My wife and I and the kids had all gone to the same Wal Mart on Black Friday evening for at least an hour and a half , also with my holster and nothing was said or even noticed by ANYONE , not customers , employee's or the cops I walked right by coming in and leaving. So tonite my daughter and I are in there again , also for about an hour to hour and a half , again totally unnoticed and unmolested by anyone at all , including the cop I walked right by at the entrance and stood ten feet from in plain site selecting a cart and getting her settled in it.

We do our thing , complete our purchases and head for the same set of doors we came in. The same cop is there that was there when we entered. I get out the door and start across the lane in front of the store , heading for the lot and my truck that was about 60 feet from the entrance. About 5 to 10 secs after we had passed by the officer at the door , I start hearing someone behind me , in a normal tone of voice saying , " hey sir " , " excuse me sir " , "hey buddy " etc , etc. Now Im sure its the cop in question , because I had just passed with in three feet of him , strong side in plain view. I kept on walking toward my truck , nonchalantly , deliberately not responding , making small talk with my daughter. Now for me this isnt unusual , I ignore the regular Wal Mart greeters that cat call for you to stop so you can prove your purchases were paid for . Point being I didnt walk faster , make any furtive movements , look over my shoulder or do ANYTHING to indicate to anyone that I knew I was the target of the officers calls. And TBH , on 4 hours sleep and a full day of chores/shopping , I really was feeling like an oblivious zombie, at least from outward appearances .

I realize he's getting closer , the calls more insistant , but still generally " conversational " in tone, no " STOP " or " Hold it pal " or anything similar. As I reached my truck I turned around to acknowledge the voice , and of course the cop is walking towards me. Not agitated per say , no hand on his sidearm , not " quick stepping " or approaching me in a manner that he thought I might actually be a legitmate threat to anyone.

So he gets to me and of course is asking about the holster , I engaged him in the innocent questions we all know so well , knowing I hadnt done anything wrong. Get the all to familiar questions/lecture about why I have it , responded that I had been at the range earlier .

Cop : Thats a really stupid thing to do

Me : Whats that sir ?

Cop: Why are you carrying that holster ?

Me : What have I done thats illegal sir ?

Cop : You dont think thats going to alarm people ? Seeing that holster

Me : You can see theres nothing in it sir , why should people be scared of a piece of plastic ?

Cop : Do you have the pistol on you ? Me : No sir , of course not , that would be illegal .

Cop : Is it in your vehicle ? Me: No sir . I have nothing illegal in the truck.

Now at this point he just takes my word for it , doesnt ask me to comply , or even ask if he can search me or my vehicle. We go back and forth a few more times , the specifics arent really terribly important at this point , as those that have been hassled know the language and arguments used by the police is virtually identical wherever you are.

Cop : " Your attracting attention to yourself , do you think thats a good idea with what I presume is your daughter with you " ?

Me : Let me guess , the old wives tale about how the scary bad guy will " target me " because they think I might have a gun ?

Cop: Yea , among other things.

Me : Im not worried about that sir , I've trained for that possibility

Cop : Then why are you carrying an empty holster , thats not normal.

Me : I have committed no crime officer , I have a piece of plastic on my belt and NO ONE has said a word about it the entire time Ive been inside , with the exception of you. In fact , did a customer come to you with a concern ? A store employee ? Did you see people running for their lives in stark terror as I walked out the door and thru the lot ? If you must know , what Im doing is also protected under the 1st Ammendment as a political expression of the State of New Jersey denying law abiding citizens the right to carry a firearm for self defense.

Cop : For the record , I agree with your position. But you cant go around in public to make a point like that , its going to scare people or draw the wrong kind of attention .

Me: For the record sir , I disagree with your OPINION. In fact , it has been noticed by people out in public on other occassions , and gotten them to start asking questions and thinking about the issue , so I say it's having a positive effect.

By this point he's getting frustrated , asks for my DL , which I complied with since Im not 100 percent CERTAIN that NJ has a law about not having to have ID while on foot. I hand it to him and then he starts grilling me about my truck , clearly fishing for justification to break my balls. I then said to him that I didnt wish to discuss this any further , as it was clear that he was breaking my stones over his personal distaste for my choosen way to exercise my 1st Ammendment rights . He then asks for my Reg and Ins Card , which I again comply with , going to my center console , out of his line of sight , again with him only relying on my word that I dont have a small arsenal in the truck. Give him the docs and he proceeds to start back in again , how Im getting a ticket for a "parking offense " and thats the kind of unwanted attention he was talking about.

Essentially saying that I wouldnt be getting the ticket , if I hadnt drawn his attention to me with my empty holster. He hands me back my Reg/Ins , holds onto my DL and tells me I can go ahead and load my bags , get my daughter out of the cold and sit tight while he checks on me. I can then hear him on the radio call me in for a " wants and warrants check " , explaining to the dispatcher its a pedestrian stop , Im carrying an empty holster with no weapon. Then he walks back across the lot to his truck.

In the end he came back , hands me my DL and a ticket , gets in another sarcastic jibe at me , blah , blah , blah. I managed to ask, and get him to admit that my carrying of an empty holster , in plain sight , in public WAS NOT ILLEGAL . He tried to dance around it by saying he wasnt going to stand there and debate the issue with me, but he finally admitted that what I was doing that first drew his attention WASNT ILLEGAL.

He got in one more parting shot about the ticket and needing to appear in court for it and " was it worth it ? "

Me : Sure was sir , fighting for your rights always costs something , you have a nice nite.

Now , it seems to me I've got him cold on a blatant 1st and 4th Ammendment violation . If Im correct , then it was an illegal stop , outside the doctrine established by Terry v Ohio , and the underlying ticket must necessarily be thrown out as " fruit of the poisonous tree " . In other words , he admitted to me that " I agree with your position " and that the mere carrying of an empty holster in and of itself wasnt illegal. So if he made an illegal stop of me , on foot , in the parking lot , then he had no basis to start sniffing around my truck , looking for something to hang me on.

I need your guys help and expertise with the relevant points of law and my interpretation of the Terry v Ohio case. Quotes from court rulings would be a BIG HELP. Im confident I can beat him in Court on the initial illegal contact , which should mean the underlying ticket gets tossed. I just want to run this by everyone for holes in my logic and a consensus on the best way to attack his encounter with me. My Court date is scheduled for Dec 9th at 9 AM

Im also looking for the quote from Justice Hugo Black ( IIRC) that was VERY specific in chastising the officer in Terry.

Thanks for reading , Im looking forward to the soon to come replies I guess you could say I " popped my OC Cherry " at least in NJ!

I've always wanted to do something similar here in Hudson County but I work for an EMS company and wouldn't like to put my job in jeopardy by rubbing elbows the wrong way with local police. I also have to worry about how it will affect my position since I'm waiting on the current civil service police listing, I have spoken to a couple of different officers that I work with about this and 3 of them stated they would have arrested this fellow but didn't tell me what he would be charged with, another said the idea was stupid since it could scare people but he sees no reason to arrest someone who is peacefully protesting.