Self defense combat ranges

[Hawk]

I've participated in IPSC practices and really never thought about the distances of the various targets I engaged. I mainly felt they were pretty close - maybe 15 - 20 feet typically. I've also shot at steel poppers at relatively close ranges (21 feet). I don't really aim at the targets, I'm mostly pointing, maybe with the sights in my peripheral vision. I do fairly well regarding accuracy, but I'm still a bit slow for IPSC standards. I've also practiced with steel target racks at similar distances. I definitely take my time and aim or I'll miss those little suckers.

Anyways, the other day I went to the range to try out a new pistol I bought for CC. I performed about the same on the steel target rack and I decided to set up a target stand with silhouette targets to practice double taps to COM. This was the first time I did some measuring and moved the target to various distances to see how I performed regarding accuracy. I tried it at 35ft, 25ft, 20ft, and 15ft. I was unable to score COM shots at the 35-25 ft ranges with my IPSC pointing style, but I could easily score com shots at 15-20 ft. It was unsettling to discover how inaccurate I was at the greater ranges without truly aiming. So I convinced myself that in the real world I probably wouldn't need to engage anyone beyond the 15-20 ft range.

Today as I was walking to my car I imagined a scenario of needing to defend myself against a target that was next to my car, just across a 2 lane street and 2 side walk widths, didn't seem that far but to my surprise when I paced it out it was 35 feet. It's funny how one judges distances on the range and then how it looks so different on the street. I felt that if I had to shoot at someone at that range I'd probably miss, which is not a good thing. So, here is my question, what is the maximum distance one should train for defensive engagement with a handgun? What is the most common distance I should become extremely proficient at? Does one have time to take aim or is point and shoot the norm? Sorry it took so long to get to the questions.

BTW, eventually I'd like to take a course or two with Tony.

Hawk,

[TonyF]

So I convinced myself that in the real world I probably wouldn't need to engage anyone beyond the 15-20 ft range.

Hawk,

That thought process is a slippery slope. It has nothing to do with not needing to engage beyond 15 - 20 ft, but more so because it rationalizes our "comfort zone". We all tend to practice what we are good at and conveniently ignore what we are not good at.

Today as I was walking to my car I imagined a scenario of needing to defend myself against a target that was next to my car, just across a 2 lane street and 2 side walk widths, didn't seem that far but to my surprise when I paced it out it was 35 feet. It's funny how one judges distances on the range and then how it looks so different on the street. I felt that if I had to shoot at someone at that range I'd probably miss, which is not a good thing. So, here is my question, what is the maximum distance one should train for defensive engagement with a handgun?

Practically speaking, 35 yards. The reason this distance should be incorporated into a practice regimen is because as distance increases, any errors in technique will become painfully obvious. IOW, it will either affirm that you're basic marksmanship technique is solid, or it will disclose that something about your technique is getting sloppy.

Realistically, engaging a threat at 35 yards is questionable because at that distance you should have the option to retreat or withdraw. However, it does serve a purpose at keeping us "honest" with regard to our skill level and technique.

Steel is great for distance drills.

What is the most common distance I should become extremely proficient at?

IMHO, 0 - 15 yards.

Does one have time to take aim or is point and shoot the norm?

I always use my sights. The "time penalty" is insignificant and ensures good hits. Now, I will acknowledge that at very close range, the "flash sight picture" will suffice. This may or may not be what you are doing re: pointing, maybe with the sights in your peripheral vision.

The only time I don't use my sights is shooting from retention.

[ExCopInPhilly]

+1 to Tony. Distance in a shooting situation is your friend and enemy. Just like it makes you less proficient, it does the same for your enemy. Many people practice at the 7 yard line, maybe and that is it. but they really need to understand their abilities out beyond that. Handgun fiighting is accuracy on target, not just accuracy, two completely different skill sets. When you practice, and if you want to practice good defensive drills, don't only practice point and shoot, but also practice sight picture speed. You will find that when you get used to acquiring a good sight picture, and doing it quickly, the difference between point and shoot vs. rapid sight acquisition is negligible, and can be the difference between a situation of a good accurate shot you walk away from and one that means you have to continue to shoot to survive. Get some books on Close Quarters Battle, or see if TonyF offers a course. Some of the best training the military ever gave me

[Lycanthrope]

I always use my sights. The "time penalty" is insignificant and ensures good hits. Now, I will acknowledge that at very close range, the "flash sight picture" will suffice. This may or may not be what you are doing re: pointing, maybe with the sights in your peripheral vision.

The only time I don't use my sights is shooting from retention.

That is pure wisdom.

With a bit of work you can always see the sights with very little....if any time penalty. You can look....and the sights will come there. In a warp speed kind of scenario just being able to see the gun in the peripheral vision is enough ......with practice.

Start with seeing the sights.....and seeing the front sight lift and return with every shot.

Lycanseefastershootfasterthrope

[Hawk]

Well I made a small error in my original post, the distance across the street was 35 yards not feet. I paced it out this morning to make sure. So, it aligns with your recommendation, Tony. I'm planning on pursuing practice at 0-35 yards and start using my sights exclusively. The main reason I was comfortable with my point and shoot technique was because I'm left handed and right eye dominant. That method allowed me to keep both my eyes open. Another reason I may have been "erroneously" shooting that way was because of my Trap shooting experience, where you focus on the target and keep the sights in your periphery. Handguns have never been my strong suit, but I intend on improving that.

Thanks everyone for the advice,

Hawk

[Emptymag]

Excellent questions Hawk!

Many people are reluctant to ask such questions.
Many more will benefit from the answers given.

This is a good thread.

[ExCopInPhilly]

Well I made a small error in my original post, the distance across the street was 35 yards not feet. I paced it out this morning to make sure. So, it aligns with your recommendation, Tony. I'm planning on pursuing practice at 0-35 yards and start using my sights exclusively. The main reason I was comfortable with my point and shoot technique was because I'm left handed and right eye dominant. That method allowed me to keep both my eyes open. Another reason I may have been "erroneously" shooting that way was because of my Trap shooting experience, where you focus on the target and keep the sights in your periphery. Handguns have never been my strong suit, but I intend on improving that.

Thanks everyone for the advice,

Hawk

Have you tried an eye patch to correct the right eye dominance? It is really a mental thing, and can be changed.

[Hawk]

Have you tried an eye patch to correct the right eye dominance? It is really a mental thing, and can be changed.

Sure, ran the whole gambit when I took up trap shooting. The final result that worked the best for me in breaking birds was "winking". I'll need to start from scratch for handguns.

Hawk,

[Hawk]

Excellent questions Hawk!

Many people are reluctant to ask such questions.
Many more will benefit from the answers given.

This is a good thread.

Thanks EM,
Can you think of any more so we can keep this going?


Hawk,

[Lycanthrope]

Hawk....you don't shoot with the Isosceles stances......gun centered? It works for either eye.......


Lycanisosthrope