Gun Free (HOME) School Law?

[streaker69]

Have a couple of questions regarding the poorly written and defined Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

As defined in section (25)

(25) The term “school zone” means— (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

If you're home schooling using an accredited and state certified public home schooling program, does your home suddenly transform into a "public school"?

The reason I'm asking is because it's been discussed before that the law is so poorly written that if you're transporting your kids to school, even in your own personal vehicle, you may not have a gun in the car. So would this similarly apply to home schooling?

Or is this another one of those cases where things are so badly written that you won't know you're in trouble until you're standing tall before the man?

[Shisno]

Perhaps. But if it does, I'll just claim "other lawful purpose" if ever arrested for it. I'll find the money to fight it somehow.

[hog45]

Have a couple of questions regarding the poorly written and defined Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

As defined in section (25)

If you're home schooling using an accredited and state certified public home schooling program, does your home suddenly transform into a "public school"?

The reason I'm asking is because it's been discussed before that the law is so poorly written that if you're transporting your kids to school, even in your own personal vehicle, you may not have a gun in the car. So would this similarly apply to home schooling?

Or is this another one of those cases where things are so badly written that you won't know you're in trouble until you're standing tall before the man?

We've been doing it for years.

This is the sort of interpretation that they will only use on you if you become a public figure and they want grounds to silence you. Could an aggressive DA find grounds to arrest you? Yes, for sure.

Homeschool your kids and have them do a book report on the book" Three Felonies a Day." The system is set up at this point in such a way that any one of us could be charged on any given day with a couple of felonies. You could fight them in court and probably win, but you would lose some, and the point is not whether you win, but whether you are abe to fight and whether the charges are bad enough to discredit you regardless of their truth.

The vast majority of cases get plea bargained down without you even fighting.

[streaker69]

We've been doing it for years.

This is the sort of interpretation that they will only use on you if you become a public figure and they want grounds to silence you. Could an aggressive DA find grounds to arrest you? Yes, for sure.

Homeschool your kids and have them do a book report on the book" Three Felonies a Day." The system is set up at this point in such a way that any one of us could be charged on any given day with a couple of felonies. You could fight them in court and probably win, but you would lose some, and the point is not whether you win, but whether you are abe to fight and whether the charges are bad enough to discredit you regardless of their truth.

The vast majority of cases get plea bargained down without you even fighting.

The real point should be to either get the GFSZ law repealed completely, which won't happen, or to get it amended so that things can be properly defined. Your own personal vehicle shouldn't fall under the law if you're transporting your own children in it. Your home shouldn't become a public school, and as far as I can tell, there isn't anything currently in the law that says it isn't.

The law needs to be changed so that you don't end up getting prosecuted by an overzealous nutjob.

[spacemanvic]

As one of the heads of my homeschool, we allow and encourage firearms on the premises. Firearms safety is also a scheduled activity.

Also, a homeschooler does not receive the benefits that a public school would receive: tax breaks, discount programs etc. Use of a curriculum does not a public school make.

Also, HSLDA is your friend

[tl_3237]

Have a couple of questions regarding the poorly written and defined Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

As defined in section (25)



If you're home schooling using an accredited and state certified public home schooling program, does your home suddenly transform into a "public school"?

The reason I'm asking is because it's been discussed before that the law is so poorly written that if you're transporting your kids to school, even in your own personal vehicle, you may not have a gun in the car. So would this similarly apply to home schooling?

Or is this another one of those cases where things are so badly written that you won't know you're in trouble until you're standing tall before the man?

I don't believe someone with an approved home school program would be considered a "school" for purposes of the GFSZA. Consider:

18 USC 921(26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

24 P.S. § 13-1327.1(b) The requirements contained in sections 1511 and 1511.1,1 except as provided for in this section, and section 16052 shall not apply to home education programs. A home education program shall not be considered a nonpublic school under the provisions of this act.

The above should also get you free of 18 Pa CS 912 since you are not a "school" under state law.

If all else fails you can work with two other GFSZA exceptions:

18 USC 922(q)2(B)

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

----------------------------

Perhaps. But if it does, I'll just claim "other lawful purpose" if ever arrested for it. I'll find the money to fight it somehow.

You're thinking about the Commonwealth exception to 18 Pa CS 912. There is not a similar exception to the FEDERAL GFSZA (18 USC 922(q)).

[streaker69]

Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it, but it still sounds ambiguous enough that you could get prosecuted if someone wanted to push it far enough. Here's why, there's different kinds of home schooling. You can do your own program, which would be a true home school program. You do all the work for lessons and everything. Then there's the accredited state standard home school programs. Where you're effectively still attending a "public" school but you're doing it at home.

Your school tax money goes to the school you sign up with. I see this as a problem where state laws are written to mesh in with federal law and things are so poorly defined that it's nearly impossible to determine if you're legal or not.

[tl_3237]

Maybe it's just the way I'm reading it, but it still sounds ambiguous enough that you could get prosecuted if someone wanted to push it far enough. Here's why, there's different kinds of home schooling. You can do your own program, which would be a true home school program. You do all the work for lessons and everything. Then there's the accredited state standard home school programs. Where you're effectively still attending a "public" school but you're doing it at home.
Your school tax money goes to the school you sign up with. I see this as a problem where state laws are written to mesh in with federal law and things are so poorly defined that it's nearly impossible to determine if you're legal or not.

I think to reading too much into it. If the state says you are not a "school" then the Feds acquiesce to their definition.

As I understand it, a home "schooler" is always under the auspices of some public school administrator - in essence on the roles of some school in a "home schooled" status. The issue you raise however only matters as to the classification of the location where the actual instruction takes place - where the administrative functions are attended to and the "school of enrollment" are immaterial. If the instructions are on private property not belonging to a recognized "school" then neither the GFZSA nor "PA GFSZA" would apply - IMO.

As to inability of deciphering the legality of a specific action due to ambiguities and conflicts between laws remember that the defendant gets the benefit of ambiguities being interpreted in their favor - at least theoretically.

[GunLawyer001]

The real point should be to either get the GFSZ law repealed completely, which won't happen, or to get it amended so that things can be properly defined. Your own personal vehicle shouldn't fall under the law if you're transporting your own children in it. Your home shouldn't become a public school, and as far as I can tell, there isn't anything currently in the law that says it isn't.

The law needs to be changed so that you don't end up getting prosecuted by an overzealous nutjob.

I agree, the statute cries out for a fix.

To start, instead of a "lawful purpose" being a defense, the statute should incorporate "for an unlawful purpose" as an element of the offense. The way it is now, having a pencil in your school bag is enough to prosecute, get past the prelim, and go to court. It's not just about guns, you can be prosecuted for a rock, a stick, the car you came in, even a paintball gun.

Force the prosecution to state the evidence for an unlawful purpose at the prelim. Instead of forcing innocent citizens to undergo the expense of a trial (I appreciate the income, but it's not fair, and I'm all about fairness), weed out all of those soccer moms dropping off the kids with their CCW in their purse.

While they're at it, they could fix that travesty in 908 and 908.1, where all stun guns are left in legal limbo, and people can buy prohibited offensive weapons all across the Commonwealth without a clue of the legal jeopardy they face. As it stands, people are being told (by sellers of stun guns, for one thing) that they are legal in PA. Section 908 says they are the same as machineguns and hand grenades. 908.1 provides a limited exception for some people, sometimes. It's clear as mud, and the penalty for guessing wrong is a lifetime prohibitor of an M-1 conviction.

[ReconLdr]

Have a couple of questions regarding the poorly written and defined Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921

As defined in section (25)



If you're home schooling using an accredited and state certified public home schooling program, does your home suddenly transform into a "public school"?

The reason I'm asking is because it's been discussed before that the law is so poorly written that if you're transporting your kids to school, even in your own personal vehicle, you may not have a gun in the car. So would this similarly apply to home schooling?

Or is this another one of those cases where things are so badly written that you won't know you're in trouble until you're standing tall before the man?

If your home were to become a "School" then I'd argue you would be entitled to:

1) Yearly budget from the State
2) Stipend from the Feds (Dept of Education)
3) A % of your neighbors income/Property Taxes
4) Health insurance
5) Union protection
6) State funded pension

I'm sure there are more "entitlements" but you get the point....