Why do we do to ourselves what we would not want the gov't to do to us?

Hokkmike · April 9th, 2010, 07:46 AM

I have recently enjoyed a gun sale and purchase with two fine gentlemen here, and in no way should this post be construed as an attack against them or even a comment on our dealings. Reading the PAFOA classifieds has generated a question.

Many here have taken to a policy of requiring a person to have a LTCF before they will consider a private sale to that person. To obtain the LTCF I had to get two references and gain the Sheriff's "approval".

Is this really the kind of standard that we would expect accept from the gov't were we to purchase a longun or handgun from our LGS? I think probably not.

What do you think about requiring to see some one's LTCF before selling them a firearm?

**MostlyHarmless** · April 9th, 2010, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Hokkmike

What do you think about requiring to see some one's LTCF before selling them a firearm?

IANAL, but I think selling a firearm to a prohibited person is a crime. If the buyer can produce a LTCF, the seller can at least argue that he had reason to believe the buyer wasn't prohibited. But I guess it is just some sort of feel good thing, because he has no chance to verify that the LTCF is valid and not fake/revoked.

The other way around some sellers think they are the only ones at risk in the transaction, which is flat out wrong. Possession of stolen property is also bad and firearms tend to have these nasty little serial numbers on them. So you actually want to know who you bought it from.

Jan

**-JD-** · April 9th, 2010, 08:28 AM

Presuming you are speaking about non-FFL-involved, FTF, long-gun transactions:

While not a legal requirement, it provides evidence of a high standard of care (beyond just "not-prohibited") in case it "comes back" to the seller - Criminally, civilly, and ethically.

Essentially, it indicates that the buyer has been vetted and licensed by the gov't as specifically OK to possess and carry firearms. Otherwise, sellers generally don't know know anything about buyers.

**GunLawyer001** · April 9th, 2010, 08:52 AM

Been covered in other threads.

Prohibited persons are more likely to try to buy guns from private sellers. To protect yourself, and to try to avoid being part of the problem, it makes good sense to ask for some evidence that the person to whom you're handing a long gun is legally allowed to have it.

It's also a contract, and the parties are each entitled to know something about each other. If the gun is stolen, the buyer should have someone to hand over to the cops, so that the buck doesn't stop with him. If the gun is re-sold to a felon the next day, the initial seller needs to be able to state that "I didn't sell it to Malrufus Bundy, who just escaped prison; I sold it to Edward Squeakyclean, who showed me his LTCF."

Seriously, if your shotgun is used in a cop killing the week after you sell it, don't you want something better than "I sold it to a a guy of average height wearing a blue T-shirt"?

This info won't be going anywhere, the seller just keeps it for a while in case the cops come calling. Frankly, I'd be suspicious of any buyer who insisted on me being unable to identify him to the police, same as I'm suspicious of anyone selling watches who asks me "you don't work for the police, do you?"

It's not like the govt will be creating gun registries based on little scraps of paper collected from private sellers. This info would only be used in the event that your gun is used in a crime or found in the possession of a prohibited person, and traced back to you.

**Franky4Fingers** · April 9th, 2010, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

It's not like the govt will be creating gun registries based on little scraps of paper collected from private sellers. This info would only be used in the event that your gun is used in a crime or found in the possession of a prohibited person, and traced back to you.

Sounds like something the cops/ local/state government tell its citizens about background checks/gun registry.

haha, just bustin' on ya.

**Guns4Fun** · April 9th, 2010, 03:55 PM

Honestly, it offends me that they ask. Some even want copies. The worst that i will ever do when buying or selling is ask to see. I never usually sell so, i'm mostly the buyer. If the seller wants copies of any of my info, the deal isn't going to happen. The law has no requirement other than not to sell to a known fellon.

The law does not require a bill of sale nor does it require photocopies of DL or LTCF when doing a private FTF long gun sale. So, i will not do it.

It really is a shame that everyone gets their panties in a bunch over copies, bill of sales etc. It's a shame they are so worried about covering their butts. I don't worry about it. maybe if the guy smelled like a brewery or looks like rif raf, i'd require a little more but selling to a regular poster on the board - meh, not so worried.

**wellcraft** · April 9th, 2010, 05:50 PM

i've sold several long guns FTF with other residents of PA and in a few cases due to the type of long gun i didn't ask for a bill of sale or LTCF. one was a 1873 springfield trap door in 45/70 and the other was a garand sold to a constable. in both cases i was comfortable that neither buyer was a prohibited person. all other long guns i have sold i required a bill of sale and LTCF as a condition of the sale. while 99% of the people making FTF sales are honest law abiding citizens there's always the 1% that are felons or trying to buy for a felon so the requirement to show a LTCF helps weed them out and it allows the seller to cover their ass in case the firearm is used in a crime.

regardless what the law requires i'd rather go one extra step to provide myself peace of mind rather than risk selling to someone who's prohibited from possessing firearms. if having to complete a bill of sale and showing a LTCF is a deal breaker for someone then i have no problem not doing business with them. i look at requiring a bill of sale and showing a LTCF as a condition for a FTF sale has helping to protect gun rights as opposed to harrassing fellow gun owners. if a person doesn't have a LTCF then transferring the long gun through an FFL is a must and i've had several buyers insist the sale go through an FFL.

**GunLawyer001** · April 9th, 2010, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Guns4Fun

. . .

It really is a shame that everyone gets their panties in a bunch over copies, bill of sales etc. It's a shame they are so worried about covering their butts. I don't worry about it. maybe if the guy smelled like a brewery or looks like rif raf, i'd require a little more but selling to a regular poster on the board - meh, not so worried.

See, I could take that two ways. When trying to figure out which person is being paranoid and unreasonable about copies, you could say that the seller who wants a copy of your DL or LTCF is being paranoid about what you might do with the rifle or shotgun that's traceable to him; or you could say that the buyer is being paranoid about what the seller might do with a photocopy of his DL or LTCF. Either way, it takes two to make a sale, and there's plenty of other buyers and sellers out there who might meet your expectations.

Originally Posted by wellcraft

. . . while 99% of the people making FTF sales are honest law abiding citizens there's always the 1% that are felons or trying to buy for a felon so the requirement to show a LTCF helps weed them out and it allows the seller to cover their ass in case the firearm is used in a crime.
. . .

I have no reason to think that 99% of FTF sellers are non-prohibited persons, but I DO know that some flea markets cater to prohibited persons. Selling a plain, used Mossberg 500 for $400, without paperwork, tells me that a lot of that price is for the "no paperwork" part, because I can walk into an FFL and get one for a few hundred less, IF I can pass PICS.

Prohibited persons who want a shotgun for home defense can't go to an FFL. So where do they all get funneled into? Yup, PAFOA classifieds, yard sales, flea markets, and guys named Vinnie who are friends of friends. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people who insisted on a paperless deal were prohibited persons. If I were prohibited and living somewhere unsafe (like America), that would probably be what I'd do.

I understand the sentiment that "the government shouldn't know who owns what guns" (and I agree with it), but I know the cost of being dragged into a criminal investigation because the only name the cops have is yours, as the last papered owner of the shotgun left at the crime scene.

**Kramer** · April 9th, 2010, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Been covered in other threads.

Prohibited persons are more likely to try to buy guns from private sellers. To protect yourself, and to try to avoid being part of the problem, it makes good sense to ask for some evidence that the person to whom you're handing a long gun is legally allowed to have it.

It's also a contract, and the parties are each entitled to know something about each other. If the gun is stolen, the buyer should have someone to hand over to the cops, so that the buck doesn't stop with him. If the gun is re-sold to a felon the next day, the initial seller needs to be able to state that "I didn't sell it to Malrufus Bundy, who just escaped prison; I sold it to Edward Squeakyclean, who showed me his LTCF."

Seriously, if your shotgun is used in a cop killing the week after you sell it, don't you want something better than "I sold it to a a guy of average height wearing a blue T-shirt"?

This info won't be going anywhere, the seller just keeps it for a while in case the cops come calling. Frankly, I'd be suspicious of any buyer who insisted on me being unable to identify him to the police, same as I'm suspicious of anyone selling watches who asks me "you don't work for the police, do you?"

It's not like the govt will be creating gun registries based on little scraps of paper collected from private sellers. This info would only be used in the event that your gun is used in a crime or found in the possession of a prohibited person, and traced back to you.

I am reminded of a guy that posted a WTB ad here at PAFOA a while back for a brand new Barrett 82a1 and his stipulation was that he would show his license but absolutely no information was to be written down and if the seller was questioned about the sale he was to say that it was sold to a nice guy.

**Wiley-X** · April 9th, 2010, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

IANAL, but I think selling a firearm to a prohibited person is a crime.

The crime is knowingly selling to a prohibited person which raises a whole bunch of questions. How can you be expected to know if someone is prohibited. Common sense.

I've known my nextdoor neighbor for 40 years so I'm pretty confident that he's not a felon. Most of the guys that I work with have been run through some sort of background check, so I'd feel pretty confident. Some guy that I just met in a bar? We're headed to an FFL.