DUI/Saftey Checkpoints and RAS

[HBGMarine]

As my knowledge and awareness of my rights continues to grow, I find myself questioning the actions of law enforcement more and more.

For instance, as I was on my way to work this morning I noticed 2 township patrol cars parked at the 4 way stop located at the exit of the neighborhood. As I pulled closer I could see an officer on foot motioning a car to pull into the neighborhood where another officer was standing with his ticket pad out. As I waited for my turn a few more cars passed and the officer motioned in another car. As each car pulled in the 2nd officer went up to the window and the drivers then forked over their "papers". From my angle I could see both cars had up to date registration stickers and one of the drivers was wearing a seat belt (couldn't see the other).

This got me thinking about the legalities of DUI/Saftey checkpoints. If the police need "reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot" when stopping someone (OC for instance), how is it any different in a vehicle? I just don't see how setting up a traffic stop or waiving cars in at checkpoint by a stop sign is justified? To me this would be the same thing as the authorities going door to door and asking each resident to prove they are a citizen.

Can anyone shed some light on how these type of checkpoints are legal and how officers get around RAS?

[HiredGoon]

As my knowledge and awareness of my rights continues to grow, I find myself questioning the actions of law enforcement more and more.

For instance, as I was on my way to work this morning I noticed 2 township patrol cars parked at the 4 way stop located at the exit of the neighborhood. As I pulled closer I could see an officer on foot motioning a car to pull into the neighborhood where another officer was standing with his ticket pad out. As I waited for my turn a few more cars passed and the officer motioned in another car. As each car pulled in the 2nd officer went up to the window and the drivers then forked over their "papers". From my angle I could see both cars had up to date registration stickers and one of the drivers was wearing a seat belt (couldn't see the other).

This got me thinking about the legalities of DUI/Saftey checkpoints. If the police need "reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot" when stopping someone (OC for instance), how is it any different in a vehicle? I just don't see how setting up a traffic stop or waiving cars in at checkpoint by a stop sign is justified? To me this would be the same thing as the authorities going door to door and asking each resident to prove they are a citizen.

Can anyone shed some light on how these type of checkpoints are legal and how officers get around RAS?

Wasn't there was a PA Supreme Court ruling that "legally justified" these stops???

Similar thread here:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...xpedition.html

[Al-Mumit]

Since when is anything they do legal? They harass you for legally OCing, they serve no-knock warrants at the wrong addresses, they falsify and hide evidence, they operate an illegal gun registry that isn't a registry and they get away with all of it.

Its a shame since there are many good, law abiding officers out there but the bad apples & bad practices taint the whole damned system...

[customloaded]

Wasn't there was a state or US court ruling that justified these stops???

Yes, there is case law on check points but that don't make them right! Least we forget that judges of the highest level are political appointees!!!

There are specific requirements for a check point. Some of them are:
1) publicize
2) clearly marked location, signs, lights, cones etc...
3) # and type of vehicle checked. Red or blue, sedan vs pick up, every 2nd or 4th one or every vehicle

These requirements vary by state!!!

And no, I do not agree with them, condone them or in any way shape form or fashion support Government fishing expeditions.

[theo]

Here is a good article to read. It is a little long but well worth the read when you have time.

A little into the article it touches on the DUI checkpoint exception.

http://www.duicentral.com/dui/the_dui_exception.html

[ChamberedRound]

The Search tool is your friend:

http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...eckpoints.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...c-stop-no.html

And, a specific answer to your question is here:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...tml#post727240

SCOTUS found DUI to be an infringement on the Constitution; HOWEVER, it IS permissible. States can pass laws to make it illegal and 11 states DID, but PA is not one of them. For the rest, checkpoints must follow procedures to avoid overt infringement. Here's an example of the guidelines from PRCA:

* Decision making must be at a supervisory level, rather than by officers in the field.
* A neutral formula must be used to select vehicles to be stopped, such as every vehicle or every third vehicle, rather than leaving it up the officer in the field.
* Primary consideration must be given to public and officer safety.
* The site should be selected by policy-making officials, based upon areas having a high incidence of drunk driving.
* Limitations on when the checkpoint is to be conducted and for how long, bearing in mind both effectiveness and intrusiveness.
* Warning lights and signs should be clearly visible.
* Length of detention of motorists should be minimized.
* Advance publicity is necessary to reduce the intrusiveness of the checkpoint and increase its deterrent effect.

(Source: Wikipedia).

In short, as long as they are announced, they are not "technically illegal". Your battle is already lost there.

As for the OP original question, you "technically" CAN refuse, but my guess is that what happens to you next isn't going to be very pleasant. As already been said, acknowledge the request and state that you are not consenting to it and see what he says next. In all likelihood he WILL demand it, at which point I would give it up. Whatever you do, DON'T reach for it . Sure you can sue afterward, but good luck winning the case when the defense is "for police safety".

I've been stopped at a DUI checkpoint before and was asked to step out of the car. Before I stepped out, I informed the cop that I have a license to carry and I have a gun on me. He asked me where and proceeded to disarm me because he was going to run me through all of the sobriety tests.

I'm going to close this thread, as there are at least the two other threads I referenced above in which this topic is addressed. Please continue any discussion in one of the above threads, to keep the discussions in one place.

Thanks!