What is a qualifying event on a 4473?

[racingfast]

Does an auction at a local auction house, selling other items in addition to firearms, constitute a qualifying event when I fill out a 4473 for a buyer?


From the AFT--

3. Does your event qualify as a Gun Show?

A Gun Show or other qualifying event is defined in
27 CFR 478.100(b).

If you can answer “yes” to both of the following questions,
your event does qualify as a gun show.

Is this event a function sponsored by any national, State,
or local organization?

Is that organization devoted to the collection,
competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or
(as well) is it an organization or association that sponsors
functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or
other sporting use of firearms in the community.

[knight0334]

Technically - no...

By the letter of the law you could take possession of the guns in question at the site(add them to your bound book), then transfer them to the winners at your brick & mortar).

Around here most of our auctioneers are FFL just because of this issue.

Now, if the auction house was a sportsmans club of some sorts - it is very well possible.

27 CFR 478.100 - Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a)
(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of § 478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.
(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.
[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]

[racingfast]

I know-- auctioneer is trying to be a one stop shop for buyers---long guns no prob out the door (PA RES) and handguns with 4473 and SP-113 thru me out the door.
If buyers drove a distance to the auction this step will not fly... Auction house is a rented fire hall.

[knight0334]

Unfortunately they would have to visit your store, or have you ship them to a FFL near them for there to be full compliance with the law.

The ATF and PSP started cracking down on raffles and "gun blasts" a few years ago. The folks holding the raffle would have the providing FFL onsite to do the transfer as the winner was announced, but they don't do that anymore. Now the FFL does show up to display the goods - but they then do the transfer at their store.

[MikeB0]

Why should this even be an issue? Is this actually a statute or a BATFE reg. as long as there is a background check and an FFL I cannot think of any good reason that doesn't involve anti-gun thinking for this rule.

[racingfast]

Why should this even be an issue? Is this actually a statute or a BATFE reg. as long as there is a background check and an FFL I cannot think of any good reason that doesn't involve anti-gun thinking for this rule.

That was my thoughts...

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.
[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]

I will be running PICS and logging into my A&D, copy of their ID for my records, having them sign one or both forms just as in a FTF transfer at my shop.

[39flathead]

An auction house or auctioneer is not a national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

Auctioneers are dedicated to the making of money.

Unless the auction is held at the licensed premises, someone will end up getting their ass in a sling.

Also, remember when you do off site PICS, you are to notify PICS of the location in case of a problem buyer, what are you going to tell them?
You are doing them at an auction at a firehall?

Good luck with that.

[racingfast]

OK moving forward then on this--- buyers are coming back to my premises for PICS...

Firearms logged into my A&D as consignments.

Auctioneer now asks if his staff is allowed to handle firearms as they are called up for bid, and subsequently bring to my table for paperwork. ????

[Grey Bearded One]

Why should this even be an issue? Is this actually a statute or a BATFE reg. as long as there is a background check and an FFL I cannot think of any good reason that doesn't involve anti-gun thinking for this rule.

One would think that but the rules state that FFLs may only transfer to non-licensees at their licensed premises or at a gun show and then only at a gun show in their state.

[39flathead]

OK moving forward then on this--- buyers are coming back to my premises for PICS...

Firearms logged into my A&D as consignments.

Auctioneer now asks if his staff is allowed to handle firearms as they are called up for bid, and subsequently bring to my table for paperwork. ????

You are putting them in your book after the auctioneer sells them, it's not your concern who handles them up until that point IMO.
It's the auctioneers concern if his employees are allowed to handle a firearm legally.