Economics of Death

**GRIZZLYBEAR** · December 9th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Sorry for the title. This may push up against the "good taste" rule, so if it offends you, please bail out now.

I just returned from the hospital, my mother-in-law (86 years old) was 911ed to the hospital. She was having chest pains, all's well and she'll be back home Sunday or Monday as they are just keeping her for observation.

Facing your own mortality isn't really that difficult for those us that are for lack of better words "old farts." Face it, we're all going to die, its just a matter of when.

I don't really care about the mundane things like funeral expenses, etc. My instructions to my oldest son is "just dispose of the body."

This got me thinking of how of my firearm collection would be disposed of after my passing. I want my heirs to get market value.
This same could apply to coins, stamps, knives or anything else you've collected or hoarded over the years and your wife shows no interest or aptitude in. For those that cry at the idea of owning more than 3 or 5 handguns, and choke at the $300 price, its pretty easy. When the numbers go up because you're buying 1 or more a month, and you've paid more for some of them than your first new car, it can be significant.

Family members and friends may be the worst to have your widow entrust with the task. They'll "cherry pick" the collection, removing key components and maybe not properly value things. Your wife may think that the Ruger is only still worth the $79 you paid for it back in '71 or '72.

For anyone to sell down a large collection and yield anything near fair market at a Gun Shows will take a few years. That would mean 5 to 10 weekend shows, all day, plus setup. Selling expenses could be terrible.
And bartering with prospective buyers without much specific knowledge about a moving market isn't very promising. You can't very well hire people to do that. Imposing on friends would get old fast. Particularly when a hard and fast line on prices prevents some sales that will only mean prolonged pain and selling time.
Basically, a gun or any other collectable isn't worth what you paid for it, what the book says its worth (if it can be identified correctly and condition gauged), or even what you'd like to get out of it. Its only worth what someone will pay for it.

Family members are notorious for their actions. Blood thins out and they'll cheat their own mother, brothers and sisters. They want dads or granddads duty gun. Its a family heirloom. Of course they'll sell it next week for the price of a couple of good meals. There is no honor among thieves.

The most important thing in a collection is to have a good inventory. It starts with an accurate identification of each gun. Exactly what it is, and anything else that goes with it (like the box, papers, sights, etc.) Sometimes I am asked "How many do you own?"I don't know. I also don't care and don't want to lie about it, so I don't merge my lists to produce a number.

Once the count gets up fairly high, just being able to locate all of them would be a real task. Somewhere, probably with your will, should be those instructions and directions to your inventory.

If you have a good inventory, and one that includes what you paid for the gun, where and when you bought it, and an approximate value updated on occasion, your widow will be dollars ahead. If she's comfortable with guns and the internet, she can go into the salvage/packing business and put them up on Guns America, Auctionarms, etc. If she has a knowledgeable attorney advising her, she'll only have a nightmare of shipping to do.

I always had this goal, back when I was young and more stupid, that a man should own a pistol, a revolver, a shotgun, a 22 rifle, and a centerfire rifle. Of course that morphed over time to include a couple of each. I still think Clinton was right..You should buy one gun a month. That's very reasonable at adding in 12 per year.

Probably the most distasteful of all alternatives may be the best. Just turn the collection over to a specialist that either auctions guns, or a large store with a reputation for liquidating estates. The distasteful part is that they'll only give you about 75% of book, and they'll do an accurate job of appraising condition. It still has the advantage of quick cash that can be reinvested in a form that makes it more available.
There is also the option of consignment sales.

That has the advantage of maybe getting more for the collection when its all said and done. The big disadvantage is that it keeps the risk with the widow. All collections have dogs that won't move for years. (Give those to your family members)

If you have a friend, relative or even offspring that has given you great pleasure in life, specifically bequeath something to them. If you identify it by description and serial number, chances are they'll get it. Tell your spouse to be very careful of interstate gifts, etc.

Another area that causes problems are the extras that go with guns. All of my knurled screwdrivers are separate from their rightful boxes and guns. Sometimes even the boxes are in a different safe, closet, building, safe deposit box, etc. Those things should have a note that instructs how to reunite them.

I'm not good with the taxes thing. Since I dislike our federal taxes and absolutely detest our state structure, I can't do very well with that. Just understand that the governor wants his bite from your hard earned collection. If only sales tax. If your wife sells 50 guns and collects $50,000, rest assured that the government will want theirs.
You can skate on casual sales of a gun or two.

Comments
Sorry for length of post---must have been rambling

grizz

**xflyboy** · December 9th, 2006, 09:44 PM

very insightful. this applies even if there is not one firearm involved.
it is very important to have everything written out as to how you want what you leave behind handled, i'm speaking from experience, 12/4/2005 my mother-in-law died unexpectedly of a massive heart attack.she always told us that all the final plans were made, BUT,guess what nothing was done. who has ever tried to find a funeral to handle a cremation on a sunday afternoon, especially when you dont have $$$ just lying around. it isn't fun but was a big learning experience. sorry to bring everyone down (and somewhat hijack a thread)

**GRIZZLYBEAR** · December 10th, 2006, 01:40 AM

Sorry about your loss! Hijack is no problem as I just had returned from a long day at the hospital and sure that I was probably rambling and not making good sense.

grizz

**762xIan** · December 10th, 2006, 03:16 AM

Very good thread GRIZ, not rambling at all, it's a hard but VERY important subject to prepare for and take care of.

I lost my brother last year at the ripe old age of 44, and that turned out to be a total disaster, no preps were made at all. The only good thing was his kids were grown up.

His wife was a mess and my wife and I essentially took the ball and did everything. It was a bad time but everything turned out somewhat OK. My wife made me real proud of her.

ALSO

Back in 2000 a coworker died (small plant and tight crew, worked together 9 years), he had no preps made either, His aged mom lived with him and she was a wreck. We at the company footed a large portion of his funeral and took care of a lot of things. In the mean time his own brothers and sister tore through the house and stole everything that wasn't nailed down. There was a fight AT the funeral over his stuff...who got what etc....

We felt so bad for his mother, I was so disgusted over the whole affair, I could not believe what was happening.

You are never to young or old to make a will, make sure what you want to happen is documented. It is also a good idea to ensure you have a list put away of every gun you have, serial #'s and purchase price.

**LorDiego01** · December 10th, 2006, 05:13 AM

That was a very heartfelt post Grizz. Many great points made.

Just to make a statement for posterity,

If Im ever in the condition of "brain-dead, vegetative state" and no chances of coming back, please, somebody from here come "take care of me". And dont skimp on the caliber. Nothing below a magnum.

**JLStorm** · December 10th, 2006, 10:39 AM

I think about this from time to time. I have two jobs, one is more dangerous than the other. The full time job, which is the much less risky of the two worries me more because I have to fly often, and I just cant stop thinking about the rules of gravity or how little control I have over the situation when I fly.

At any rate I collect straight razors which I shave with that are probably more valuable than most of my guns. I also of course have a few guns that I love. I have an opposite view of Grizz, in that I dont want my stuff sold. Many people I have met charish certain weapons or trinkets simply because their brother, father, mother, etc left these things to them, and even when they need money do not want to sell them. I have met certain people who have sold these gifts and seriously regretted it. If I had a huge collection I might sell most of it, but I would stil save a few of my favorites to leave to others as something to remember my by that will bring a smile accross their face from time to time.

Just my $0.02

**GRIZZLYBEAR** · December 10th, 2006, 11:08 AM

JL:

I am an amasser and most of the firearms I have are and were purchased as an investments that I figure on selling off in my "golden years" (retirement). Yes, I do have stocks, a deferred compension plan, and will also have two retirements one from the teamsters and one from the state, along with social security. The firearms will sold off by me when I want additional money for lets say a new truck.

I also said in my post:

If you have a friend, relative or even offspring that has given you great pleasure in life, specifically bequeath something to them. If you identify it by description and serial number, chances are they'll get it. Tell your spouse to be very careful of interstate gifts, etc.

The I have is an investment and "special firearms" will be given to son, daughters, etc.

grizz

**JLStorm** · December 12th, 2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by GRIZZLYBEAR

JL:

I am an amasser and most of the firearms I have are and were purchased as an investments that I figure on selling off in my "golden years" (retirement). Yes, I do have stocks, a deferred compension plan, and will also have two retirements one from the teamsters and one from the state, along with social security. The firearms will sold off by me when I want additional money for lets say a new truck.

I also said in my post:

If you have a friend, relative or even offspring that has given you great pleasure in life, specifically bequeath something to them. If you identify it by description and serial number, chances are they'll get it. Tell your spouse to be very careful of interstate gifts, etc.

The I have is an investment and "special firearms" will be given to son, daughters, etc.

grizz

Sorry I missed that part of your post.

**wewo** · December 13th, 2006, 08:12 AM

Grizz, I think (I am not a tax lawyer or T & E lawyer) there would be an estate tax based on the fair market value of your collection which you really can not avoid whether the guns are sold or kept by your family. I believe there would be no income tax after that unless they were sold at a profit. I know you have a large collection and I am sure you have other assets that are important to you and your family.
Your best bet is to get a consultation with a Trust and Estates attorney in your area, prepare a will and get advice on how to deal with your collection.

**GRIZZLYBEAR** · December 14th, 2006, 11:40 AM

wewo:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware of the taxes and problems with federal, city, and state governments. The reason for this post was I just returned from the hospital (86 mother-in-law) who own a home plus other items of value and has no plan, will, or any idea of who gets what. I have seen problems (actual fights) when the vultures arrive when some dies without a will or something in writing as to who gets what.

All ready have an attorney to handle most of the problems and my inventory records which are updated semi-annually to shows value and also outlines who gets what and what will be sold and how much it will be sold for, and if something happens to my wife the children and grand children will get equal shares. The attorney will be the executor and her word is law as long as she follows my will.

grizz