Which round is better for self defense, 9mm or .40 S&W

[CHEMICAL]

I'm a Barnes Solid Copper Hollow Point (SCHP) kind of a guy.

I use Buffalo Barnes .380+P 80gr SCHP's in my LCP, and Corbon DPX 9mm+P 115gr SCHP's in my Sig P228.

100% retained weight, no jacket to shed, barrier blind, nice big razor sharp copper cutting petals, tremendous expansion, and they look really purty too.



That 9mm copper flower basically becomes a 120,00rpm hole saw.

But as the pic clearly shows, any of those JHP designs will not tickle in the slightest.

The Federal is showing its nipple!!!!...PORNOGRAPHY!!!!!

[Valorius]

Val it's whatever YOU say the best round is because you are the biggest gun expert I never heard of.

Actually, what i'm doing is agreeing with the article posted by the OP, and backing up that experts claims with direct linked quotes from other experts, namely:

Doctor Gary K Roberts
Ofc. Massad Ayoob

I've also mentioned that what i'm saying is supported by the theories of Dr. Marvin Fackler, though i have not directly quoted him.

I do not even agree with everything they've said on a personal level. All i've done in this thread is link to pages that contain in-depth explanations of their recommendations, the reasoning behind them, and direct quotes.

[Edg]

So I printed out the chart. Then I laid a piece of paper over it and marked the largest portion of the permanent wound cavity...thats what it shows. Then I went to the 180gr .40 cal and did the same at the widest point. I was going to measure it but I dont feel like walking downstairs so I folded the paper on the 9mm line...the paper lined up with the .40 mark...the wound channel is 2x as large...and 180gr at 995 fps is a pretty weak .40 at that. That is alot more arteries and soft tissue damage.
I agree that 9mm is enough and I feel safe with it but its stupid to say a 9mm is as lethal as a 44 magnum with identical hit. Faster and heavier is always better so long as you can put the bullets where they need to be.

[mikenac]

I'm a Barnes Solid Copper Hollow Point (SCHP) kind of a guy.

I use Buffalo Barnes .380+P 80gr SCHP's in my LCP, and Corbon DPX 9mm+P 115gr SCHP's in my Sig P228.

100% retained weight, no jacket to shed, barrier blind, nice big razor sharp copper cutting petals, tremendous expansion, and they look really purty too.



That 9mm copper flower basically becomes a 120,00rpm hole saw.

But as the pic clearly shows, any of those JHP designs will not tickle in the slightest.

I'm a big fan of the DPX/Barnes myself. I just got some for my .38.

[Neko456]

Damn that sure is pretty, either one of them would do. Is any one of those .380? I have 9mm. 357 mag, .40 and 45 acp expanded I need to post there almost as pretty but there is a big difference in size of expansion though all did well.

[Valorius]

So I printed out the chart. Then I laid a piece of paper over it and marked the largest portion of the permanent wound cavity...thats what it shows. Then I went to the 180gr .40 cal and did the same at the widest point. I was going to measure it but I dont feel like walking downstairs so I folded the paper on the 9mm line...the paper lined up with the .40 mark...the wound channel is 2x as large...and 180gr at 995 fps is a pretty weak .40 at that. That is alot more arteries and soft tissue damage.
I agree that 9mm is enough and I feel safe with it but its stupid to say a 9mm is as lethal as a 44 magnum with identical hit. Faster and heavier is always better so long as you can put the bullets where they need to be.

I don't think anyone has tried to say that.

In the late 80s the idea of a huge temporary wound increasing wounding effects was en vogue. That idea has since fallen out of favor with almost all the experts out there. The one paper that supports the idea of a "pressure wave remote wounding effect" at handgun velocities is mentioned and briefly explained in this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_effectiveness

It states that a bullet needs to release a minimum of 500fpe of energy per 12" penetrated to achieve the effect. If that is true, then high velocity +P and magnum loads that can achieve that level of performance would in fact have an edge in damage.

But it's an as yet unproven theory, and some researchers dismiss the evidence out of hand.

Here's an excerpt of the text from wiki:

"Ballistic Pressure Wave/Hydrostatic Shock

There is a significant body of evidence that Hydrostatic shock (more precisely known as the ballistic pressure wave) can contribute to handgun bullet effectiveness.
Recent work published by scientists M Courtney and A Courtney provides compelling support for the role of a ballistic pressure wave in incapacitation and injury.[2][3][4][5] This work builds upon the earlier works of Suneson et al. where the researchers implanted high-speed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.[6][7] These scientists observed neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh.
The results of Suneson et al. were confirmed and expanded upon by a later experiment in dogs[8] which "confirmed that distant effect exists in the central nervous system after a high-energy missile impact to an extremity. A high-frequency oscillating pressure wave with large amplitude and short duration was found in the brain after the extremity impact of a high-energy missile . . ." Wang et al. observed significant damage in both the hypothalamus and hippocampus regions of the brain due to remote effects of the ballistic pressure wave."

---

There are rounds in 9mm, .40 cal, .357 sig, .357 magnum, 10mm and .45acp that achieve the required 500fpe:12" transfer rate.

Damn that sure is pretty, either one of them would do. Is any one of those .380? I have 9mm. 357 mag, .40 and 45 acp expanded I need to post there almost as pretty but there is a big difference in size of expansion though all did well.

All in .380:


Buffalo Bore is now loading the same Barnes Tac XP bullet as used in the Corbon DPX line, but at nearly 200fps faster.

From Kel Tec P3AT, 2.7: Bbl...

Corbon DPX: 950fps, 160fpe

Buffalo Barnes Unleaded +P: 1130fps, 225fpe

By my math, the Buffalo Barnes round has nearly 30% more energy.

PS: None of this is my data, it's all gleaned from research i've done on the topic, and reposted here for the board's convenience.

[Edg]

I don't think anyone has tried to say that.

In the late 80s the idea of a huge temporary wound increasing wounding effects was en vogue. That idea has since fallen out of favor with almost all the experts out there. The one paper that supports the idea of a "pressure wave remote wounding effect" at handgun velocities is mentioned and briefly explained in this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_effectiveness

It states that a bullet needs to release a minimum of 500fpe of energy per 12" penetrated to achieve the effect. If that is true, then high velocity +P and magnum loads that can achieve that level of performance would in fact have an edge in damage.

But it's an as yet unproven theory, and some researchers dismiss the evidence out of hand.

Here's an excerpt of the text from wiki:

"Ballistic Pressure Wave/Hydrostatic Shock

There is a significant body of evidence that Hydrostatic shock (more precisely known as the ballistic pressure wave) can contribute to handgun bullet effectiveness.
Recent work published by scientists M Courtney and A Courtney provides compelling support for the role of a ballistic pressure wave in incapacitation and injury.[2][3][4][5] This work builds upon the earlier works of Suneson et al. where the researchers implanted high-speed pressure transducers into the brain of pigs and demonstrated that a significant pressure wave reaches the brain of pigs shot in the thigh.[6][7] These scientists observed neural damage in the brain caused by the distant effects of the ballistic pressure wave originating in the thigh.
The results of Suneson et al. were confirmed and expanded upon by a later experiment in dogs[8] which "confirmed that distant effect exists in the central nervous system after a high-energy missile impact to an extremity. A high-frequency oscillating pressure wave with large amplitude and short duration was found in the brain after the extremity impact of a high-energy missile . . ." Wang et al. observed significant damage in both the hypothalamus and hippocampus regions of the brain due to remote effects of the ballistic pressure wave."

---

There are rounds in 9mm, .40 cal, .357 sig, .357 magnum, 10mm and .45acp that achieve the required 500fpe:12" transfer rate.
All in .380:


Buffalo Bore is now loading the same Barnes Tac XP bullet as used in the Corbon DPX line, but at nearly 200fps faster.

From Kel Tec P3AT, 2.7: Bbl...

Corbon DPX: 950fps, 160fpe

Buffalo Barnes Unleaded +P: 1130fps, 225fpe

By my math, the Buffalo Barnes round has nearly 30% more energy.

PS: None of this is my data, it's all gleaned from research i've done on the topic, and reposted here for the board's convenience.

The difference is the 9mm has a couple of rounds over 500 fps. Virtually all .40 are over 500. As are the majority of 357 sig, all 10mms. all magnums.

[Edg]

This thread is kinda goofy anyhow....it doesnt ask which round is enough, it asks which is better. Aside from capacity 9mm cant do anything a .40 cant. The .40 is better, very marginally, but better nonetheless.
If I could only have 1 bullet in my gun and I could put it in the head of chest of my attacker I would rather have that round be a .40.

[Valorius]

The difference is the 9mm has a couple of rounds over 500 fps. Virtually all .40 are over 500. As are the majority of 357 sig, all 10mms. all magnums.

It doesn't neccesarily have to be over 500.

It merely has to release 500fpe per 12" of penetration- if the theory is correct.

So if the bullet only penetrates 10", it needs somewhat less max energy. If it fragements, it seems to move the threshold even lower, according to what i've read.

This could explain why the Corbon 115gr+P Sierra JHP has been so successful in actual shootings, despite what by FBI standards is "substandard penetration." It routinely penetrates about 10+" of gel and extensively fragments.

Most .40 loads are well under 500fpe of energy, by the way. Though there are definitely plenty that go over that level too.

In 9mm, the rounds that would seem to achieve the 500fpe:12" ratio are:

Most adv. velocities from Glock 17 or Beretta 92:

Corbon Powrball 100gr+P @ 1475fps
Corbon 115gr+P Sierra JHP @ 1350fps (this load often chronos over 1400fps)
Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Sierra JHP @ 1425fps (current offering)
Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps (older load, no longer offered)
Doubletap 80gr+P Barnes SCHP @ 1575fps- maybe
Doubletap 115gr+P (various JHPs) @ 1415fps
Swampfox 115gr+P Sierra JHP @ 1425fps

Some of these also penetrate the FBI required 12" in gel tests.

Corbon Powrball 12.1"
Buffalo Bore or Doubletap 115gr+P+ Gold Dot: 13"

So even if velocity and a big TWC is your thing, 9mm has plenty to offer. Current thinking from many of the top experts seems to favor standard or mild +P level 147gr bonded JHP bullets though.

I am personally of the mind that if you can have high velocity, high energy, and still hit the 12", why not..there might just be something to the pressure wave effect. I do think at higher velocities the TWC becomes a definite factor, which is why i have no problems relying on a 5.7x28mm pistol for self defense. At 2500+ fps though, it is a whole different animal.

[MrBear13]

I love you guys...

I'm learning so much!