PA Constable Arrested by NYPD for Concealed Carry???

[constable653]

I chose to address a different point: whether constables have any authority to forcibly enter under certain circumstances. They do. That's what an ARREST WARRANT is: it's an authorization and a command to take forcible possession of someone's person, using any reasonable and necessary force, including forcible entry of the warrantee's domicile.

There are several very good reasons that we don't simply show up and kick down doors. Nevertheless, the power exists and may sometimes be lawfully used. In the case of criminal "straight to jail" warrants, it is used many times a year.

You clearly know something about the office, so I accept your claim to be one yourself. But you also have a hate on for your fellow constables, which makes you sound like the old guys in the PA State Constables Association, who have been working for years now to gut the office, e.g. by collaborating to eliminate the statutory authority to perform on view arrest. It's also suspicious that you register under that name, to make your first posts in this thread. Your warning to the guy who resurrected the thread was excellent, but you've taken a turn for the worse since then.

What I dislike about fellow constables is the the misconceptions some of them have about their duties, the cowboy attitude they use in dealing with people, and the total lack of professionalism (grooming, smell, dress, language, and attitude).

There are far too many mental midgets out there who managed to get 12 people to vote for them. They're nothing more than troublemakers will we'll all read about in the paper for doing stupid crap, and there has been no shortage of constables doing stupid crap (from shooting dogs, performing evictions without hearings, to sexual assaults).

So, when I hear about a constable who just walks in a home while looking for someone who never lived at that address, I'd like nothing more than to see that constable removed from office. If constables don't police their own, we're all destined to legislated out of existence and our duties transferred to sheriffs who want nothing more than to grow their offices and duties.

If you go to any constable forum and you'll see the nitwits in action. Heck, attend a con ed class and you'll hear it first hand. The best one was a joker who was acting as a rent collector (certainly not acting on a judge's orders) for a slum lord and doing it while in uniform. He bragged about this and the threats he made against people who did not have all the rent money. You can't handcuff someone because they're short on this months rent and force them to call a relative to get the money. Can anyone say 1983 lawsuit waiting to happen as well as a boat load of criminal charges.

So yeah, I'm a constable who does not like a lot of other constables. There are too many nitwits, mental midgets, and retards who get elected and certified. There are too many constables who think they're the cops and want to go out on patrol and arrest people for breach of the peace (good luck finding that charge in title 18). There are too many constable who talk down to and berate everyone they come in contact with. There are too many constables who dress like mall ninjas or are so dirty that the they make the homeless look clean.

So when I hear a constable saying "But, I can do that". There are always exceptions to that statement, exceptions based in statute and case law. Can a constable make forceful entry to make an arrest. Yes, but, you can't just kick down a down doors under the guise of "I was looking for a guy" without being able to articulate and document why you did what you did. You have to have reasonable suspicion that who you're looking for is actually in that home. I'm not forcing my way into a home unless I see the actor inside the home and I'm not breaking down any doors (certainly not for a summary warrant). Entering someone's home puts you at the biggest disadvantage you could possibly get into.

[Adam-12]

What I dislike about fellow constables is the the misconceptions some of them have about their duties, the cowboy attitude they use in dealing with people, and the total lack of professionalism (grooming, smell, dress, language, and attitude).

I share your dislike of these things. I'm also leery of giving a false impression that these are a majority of constables: they're not. Many constables, like you and me, both (1) don't fit the description, and (2) do what we can to see bad apples removed.

There are far too many mental midgets out there who managed to get 12 people to vote for them.

Perhaps so. There are also cops who have been rejected by departments because their IQ was too high. When I think "mental giant," I do not picture any type of LEO. So while I don't like the idea of having complete idiots running around with guns and badges, I do recognize that law enforcement is not a chapter of Mensa.

They're nothing more than troublemakers will we'll all read about in the paper for doing stupid crap, and there has been no shortage of constables doing stupid crap (from shooting dogs, performing evictions without hearings, to sexual assaults).

There have been no shortage of cops doing stupid crap. The difference is that when constables do stupid crap, they can be removed from office, voted out, or arrested--and the prosecutor never hesitates to arrest a constable, even in cases where they acted PROPERLY, let alone improperly. That's a great thing about constables: they are accountable. Cops, on the other hand, are protected by a blue wall of silence, and are only fired or prosecuted when public outrage is at "riot in the streets" level.

So, when I hear about a constable who just walks in a home while looking for someone who never lived at that address, I'd like nothing more than to see that constable removed from office.

Absolutely! I would like to correct any misimpression, however, that constables executing an ARREST WARRANT are never allowed to forcibly enter. I have entered defendants' homes, and been asked where the f*ck I get off going on private property like that, which forced me to give the "Hello McFly, this is an 'ARREST WARRANT,' not a Watchtower magazine," lecture.

If constables don't police their own, we're all destined to legislated out of existence and our duties transferred to sheriffs who want nothing more than to grow their offices and duties.

Agreed. We will anyway, though: the counties' association, sheriffs' association the PSP, and powerful legislators like Caltagirone are all determined to abolish us. Sooner or later they will succeed. We should police our own because that's the moral thing to do--but we should never imagine that somehow if we do that, the press will treat us fairly or these powerful interests will stop their crusade to abolish our office. They never will.

So yeah, I'm a constable who does not like a lot of other constables. There are too many nitwits, mental midgets, and retards who get elected and certified.

I agree, but I also would say that the exact same statement is true of every town council in PA, every mayor's office, and the state legislature. I'd say the same of every police department or trooper barracks, replacing "elected" with "hired." What's interesting to me is that you are taking a universal truth and holding it against constables especially.

There are too many constables who think they're the cops and want to go out on patrol and arrest people for breach of the peace (good luck finding that charge in title 18)...

You're a member of the PSCA. If you're not, I'll eat your shoe.

Entering someone's home puts you at the biggest disadvantage you could possibly get into.

Yes, there are lots of good reasons why we don't go around doing that. Even cops don't, despite their great love of showing up in scrums of a dozen or more in full battle dress with battering rams.

[LenP]

How long ago did this happen? The best recourse is with the judge. Judges have to win re-election. A constable who brings them heat from voters is a constable who will get no more work.

This was four years ago now, seeing the thread just reminded me of the event. I would not be following up on something form that long ago, but definitely will if something happens again.

[LenP]

I don't know the particulars, but you do know that a WARRANT empowers the LEO carrying it out to enter forcibly what he reasonably believes to be the domicile of the defendant named on the warrant, right? And if your address is the one on file with the DMV, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that it's his domicile, especially given there's a law requiring licensees to file a change of address within 15 days.

Note that I usually do not enter forcibly, for all sorts of good reasons--but if you think they aren't allowed to do it, you should think a little about what "warrant" means.



If you're suggesting the use of force against a LEO--whether cop, constable, sheriff's deputy, or whatever--during the performance of his duties in executing an arrest warrant, then I suggest you think again. Use of force against a LEO performing his duties is automatically felony aggravated assault, and the law specifically strips our right of self-defense when our assailant is a LEO making an arrest, even if the arrest is illegal.

I don't know why you are responding to my post, since you seem to be addressing something that had nothing to do with me. In my case, the guy entered my home, which I own outright, while looking for a neighbor who neighbor who had not been there for several years at least. Note that the dummy did not enter the neighbors house, even after going there first, he entered mine. It was not a mistake, he thought he was allowed to do what he wanted.

Secondly, I am not suggesting the use of force against an LEO doing his job. I have the utmost respect for LEOs doing their job. I have family including my son who are LEOs. But the fact remains that if someone enters my home unannounced, no warning, no "We are the police executing a warrant", just walk into the middle of my house like you own it, the first instinct is not to go look for whether the person wandering around in my house when I have kids there might be a cop, it is to grab something to protect myself. At the time, I owned no firearms, and so instead I told my children to hide upstairs, and I went down unarmed to find this d**head with his hand on his weapon ready to draw it, fully knowing that he was not supposed to be there. I suspect that if I came downstairs armed to investigate, that I would have had extra holes in me. If you read my post, it would be hard to infer anything else. If you think that what this guy did is ok, then you are part of the problem, and the reason why so many folks don't give LEOs, including folks like my son, the proper respect.

[Adam-12]

Note that the dummy did not enter the neighbors house, even after going there first, he entered mine. It was not a mistake, he thought he was allowed to do what he wanted.

There's no excuse for entering the wrong house. One of the nice things about constables is that they will be arrested and charged when they do that, if you call the police promptly. You will not get the same courtesy when the cops have a warrant for your neighbor, and enter your house and shoot your dog by accident.

If you think that what this guy did is ok...

Never said any such thing. In fact I specifically said that I know nothing about your situation one way or the other, before I made any other comment.

[LenP]

There's no excuse for entering the wrong house. One of the nice things about constables is that they will be arrested and charged when they do that, if you call the police promptly. You will not get the same courtesy when the cops have a warrant for your neighbor, and enter your house and shoot your dog by accident.



Never said any such thing. In fact I specifically said that I know nothing about your situation one way or the other, before I made any other comment.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you could have read my post before responding and suggesting that I might be promoting violence against LEOs. I am not trying to nitpick, but I find the insinuation offensive, and don't see anything in my post which justified it. If the point you are trying to make is not related to what I said, don't post it in a response to me.

[Adam-12]

Not to beat a dead horse, but you could have read my post before responding and suggesting that I might be promoting violence against LEOs.

That's how it sounded to me. I'm glad you took the time to clear that up--thank you.

[constable653]

That's how it sounded to me. I'm glad you took the time to clear that up--thank you.

How did it sound anything like "that". His words were clear and written. You know you can read things a few times if you don't understand them the first time. LenP's posts were direct and to the point. I don't see how you could possible read things into what he posted.

[Adam-12]

How did it sound anything like "that". His words were clear and written. You know you can read things a few times if you don't understand them the first time. LenP's posts were direct and to the point. I don't see how you could possible read things into what he posted.

I think you're picking fights at this point.

LenP asked, "... I wonder exactly what is the correct response in a situation like that, and was there something else I should have done." That question is highly ambiguous. Does it mean he has literally no idea whatsoever what other options were open to him? That seems a bit far-fetched, since there are very few things you can do with a trespasser in the first place. You can call the police; you can remove him using force, possibly including deadly force; or I suppose you could play pattie-cake with him or offer him a biscuit.

I replied that I sure as hell hope he wasn't thinking of forcibly removing the constable, because there are laws prohibiting self-defense against a LEO effecting an arrest, even if it's an illegal arrest, and it's fairly unwise to risk the legal repercussions of fucking around with any LEO performing his duties, even if he's performing them all ass-backwards and illegally.

In their infinite wisdom, the PA legislature has decided to make this a law. In the case of police, they can shoot you dead and (often) get away with it. In the case of constables, the prosecutor will swiftly and gleefully lock the constable up, but there's a genuine risk that you'll BOTH end up in jail if you use force against him.

If LenP was only contemplating calling 911, then I encourage that. If he was thinking about playing pattie-cake, I can't say as how that's a particularly helpful course of action. And if he had absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what he might do about a trespasser in his house, then I'm afraid he must not have much imagination or creativity.

I'm very glad that LenP clarified that use of force was never on the table, as far as he was concerned. That's very good to know. It wasn't obvious from his original question whether it was on the table or not.

[constable653]

I think you're picking fights at this point.

LenP asked, "... I wonder exactly what is the correct response in a situation like that, and was there something else I should have done." That question is highly ambiguous. Does it mean he has literally no idea whatsoever what other options were open to him? That seems a bit far-fetched, since there are very few things you can do with a trespasser in the first place. You can call the police; you can remove him using force, possibly including deadly force; or I suppose you could play pattie-cake with him or offer him a biscuit.

I replied that I sure as hell hope he wasn't thinking of forcibly removing the constable, because there are laws prohibiting self-defense against a LEO effecting an arrest, even if it's an illegal arrest, and it's fairly unwise to risk the legal repercussions of fucking around with any LEO performing his duties, even if he's performing them all ass-backwards and illegally.

In their infinite wisdom, the PA legislature has decided to make this a law. In the case of police, they can shoot you dead and (often) get away with it. In the case of constables, the prosecutor will swiftly and gleefully lock the constable up, but there's a genuine risk that you'll BOTH end up in jail if you use force against him.

If LenP was only contemplating calling 911, then I encourage that. If he was thinking about playing pattie-cake, I can't say as how that's a particularly helpful course of action. And if he had absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what he might do about a trespasser in his house, then I'm afraid he must not have much imagination or creativity.

I'm very glad that LenP clarified that use of force was never on the table, as far as he was concerned. That's very good to know. It wasn't obvious from his original question whether it was on the table or not.

Remember buddy, thanks for the negative rep because you can't read. As one person said, when they gave me positive rep "Adam-12 seem to have a problem with everyone" As I said, you should read twice and act once.

Now I know where some constables get the idea they can do certain things despite the case law and statutes being clear on the matters. I see how people will read what they want to read and not read what was written.

My personal favorites are the ones who think they can just suit up in uniform and that makes everything within their legal duties. Also a good one are the constables who think they're a tax exempt municipality or want to form an LLC for their constable office. I think the best part of con ed is the wings nut who are all too willing to telling all the nonsense they're going to participate in. If only they would just read what's written.