Battle Rifles vs. Assault Rifles

[PA Traveler]

From a rifle newbie trying to learn (ask me about the F-4 - that I can tell you something about...)

If the M855 round is good on body armored troops (hmmm...) why not on lightly robed ragheads?

ETA: While not a serious military treatise, I did find "Boston's Gun Bible" by Boston T. Party an interesting read on his opinion that everyone really needs to become a rifleman... with a real main battle rifle.
Anyone familiar with it?

[ReconLdr]

From a rifle newbie trying to learn (ask me about the F-4 - that I can tell you something about...)

If the M855 round is good on body armored troops (hmmm...) why not on lightly robed ragheads?

The M855 has a steel core which retains its shape. It was designed to penetrate body armor. When it contacts flesh at short ranges, it has a tendency to pass straight (or Hollywood term "clean") through the the bad guy. This is because of the steel core. It prevents the bullet from deforming/fragmenting or tumbling after it hits flesh while it is still traveling at very close to muzzle velocity.

FYI, the .223/5.56 NATO was selected because of its tendency to "tumble" after contacting flesh. The impact of this round (when originally adopted) would cause the tip to deform and induce YAW or a tumbling effect which would create a FUCKING HUGE permanent wound channel.

When the NATO changed to the M855 (62gr bullet and M4 platform) the heavier bullet and lower Muzzle Velocity reduced the probability of tumbling. Which reduced the effectiveness of the round. To fix the problem the gubment needs to:

1) Go back to using .223 Remington FMJ with the M4 platform, or soft point hunting or varmint bullets if they no longer wish to conform to the Laws of War.
2) Go back to M16s and shoot the M855. (this would help but not totally eliminate the perceived problem)
3) Issue phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range.
4) Afford soldiers and Marines all the ammo they want to train with so they can achieve consistent hits on the CNS with the 1st round. This is truly the only way to achieve immediate incapacitation of a threat.

Note: To the Old guys like me: Do remember when the military went to the "Green Tipped" ammo? That was the transition from 55gr FMJ to 62gr FMJ (w/steel core).

[PA Traveler]

Thanks- I actually saw a thread on M4Carbine.net with pictures of that huge fucking wound channel- a guy who was shot in the thigh with 5.56 mm at close range. It was really a fucking mess! A guy who commented on it claimed to be the surgeon that treated the victim. Interesting stuff, really.

[Orion0317]

I couldn't have said it better ReconLdr.

The original M193 round was inherently unstable, leading to the tumbling or yawing effect and massive permanent cavity and even larger temporary cavity. This instability was caused by the round's high velocity out of its' designed platform; 18-20" rifle barrel (per the design specs of Eugene Stoner). When that instability was "un-designed" with the advent of the M855 round (designed by the Belgians to function in their new FN FNC rifle with a barrel length a fractin of an inch less than 18"), coupled with an increase in M-4 style carbines with 14" or even shorter barrels not allowing sufficent gasses to burn and create that velocity, the renowned complaints about the system began to surface. The problem is not so much the caliber (5.56x45mm) but rather the round choice and platform choice (M-16 or M-4).

[PA Traveler]

Here are the pics - 'Thread Title: "M193 in the Leg"

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....=gunshot+wound

[RandomTask]

...It all doesn't change the fact the .223 is a varmint cartridge, and the .308 is a big game cartridge. The rest is nothing more than smoke filled coffee house crap. Bill T.

[arrrrgh15]

Why is it that the ones in favor of switching out to a larger caliber are never the ones that would have to actually carry the shit?

I vaguely remember a load out for the scouts was an ungodly amount of ammo and was a tad bit on the heavy side. I can only imagine what it would be like now with all the body armor. Our light infantry is anything but light.

I'm sure when this thread is over people will have converted their existing ar15s to shoot something other than 5.56 so they won't be considered hypocrits.

Reconldr has this one pegged. And yes, they do have a replacement ammo for the m855 to address the issues specifically cited. M262 and that new ammo the Marines are using is designed specifically for dispatching indigenous personell from shorter barrelled weapons.

.308 Big Game Cartridge?

This is a solution looking for a problem.

R15 Out.

[ReconLdr]

Why is it that the ones in favor of switching out to a larger caliber are never the ones that would have to actually carry the shit?

1) I vaguely remember a load out for the scouts was an ungodly amount of ammo and was a tad bit on the heavy side. I can only imagine what it would be like now with all the body armor. Our light infantry is anything but light.

2) I'm sure when this thread is over people will have converted their existing ar15s to shoot something other than 5.56 so they won't be considered hypocrits.

Reconldr has this one pegged. And yes, they do have a replacement ammo for the m855 to address the issues specifically cited. M262 and that new ammo the Marines are using is designed specifically for dispatching indigenous personell from shorter barrelled weapons.

.308 Big Game Cartridge?

This is a solution looking for a problem.

R15 Out.

1) I was a Scout Platoon Sergeant for a number of years. Scouts carry as much ammo as the Infantry, we just have half the number of soldiers or in some cases 1/3. So it works out that we have around twice as much per man.

2) I am building an AR and plan on putting together multiple uppers for multiple calibers. I have a number of reasons for this...None more important than the .50 Beowulf is fucking bad ass. I will have at least one upper that shoots 5.56 though.

[arrrrgh15]

1) I was a Scout Platoon Sergeant for a number of years. Scouts carry as much ammo as the Infantry, we just have half the number of soldiers or in some cases 1/3. So it works out that we have around twice as much per man.

2) I am building an AR and plan on putting together multiple uppers for multiple calibers. I have a number of reasons for this...None more important than the .50 Beowulf is fucking bad ass. I will have at least one upper that shoots 5.56 though.

If I recall correctly, vest carried 6 mags, and had room for 9 mags in 3 ammo carriers on the belt, one in weapon. When a 2 or 3 man scout team makes contact you need to have as much ammo as possible to break contact and E&E back.

I'm glad it wasn't 7.62. Wonder what the equivalent weight would be?

[ReconLdr]

If I recall correctly, vest carried 6 mags, and had room for 9 mags in 3 ammo carriers on the belt, one in weapon. When a 2 or 3 man scout team makes contact you need to have as much ammo as possible to break contact and E&E back.

I'm glad it wasn't 7.62. Wonder what the equivalent weight would be?

The 7.62 mags were only 20 rounds. I don't have exact figures in front of me IIRC the loaded 20 rd 7.62x51 weigh more than loaded 30 rd 5.56x45 mags. I will try and weigh 210 rds of each 5.56 and 7.62 tonight and see what the difference is. I bet it will be considerable.

IMHO the 5.56 is the best option (read as the lesser of all issues) available right now. (with the right ammo) I don't think changing calibers right now is the answer. It would be easier and cheaper to use the M262 ammo in the meantime.