transporting firearms in a car...

**twency** · July 12th, 2016, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

I'm still trying to find a case where a legal person without a LTCF was arrested/charged/convicted in Philly of 6108 because they had an unloaded rifle in their vehicle. Such a case would then mean "carry upon the streets or public property" includes transporting in a vehicle and not just physically carrying outside the vehicle.

I don't know if you'd find such a case, but it's really not necessary.

We know from 18 Pa C.S. § 6109 that the legislature uses the words "carry" and "carrying" to refer both to the act of carrying in the manner "concealed on or about one's person" and the act of carrying in the manner "in a vehicle".

Since § 6108 prohibits "carry" without modification or limitation as to the manner of carry (just the location upon streets or public property in Philly) we can reasonably conclude § 6108 prohibits both concealed carry and vehicle carry when it prohibits unlicensed "carry".

Given the demonstrably anti-gun tendencies of the courts in recent cases ("any person" doesn't include PA residents for vehicle carry purposes, "other lawful purpose" includes almost no purposes that weren't mentioned before the word "other") it is difficult to imagine the courts concluding the legislature intended to prohibit unlicensed carry on foot but not unlicensed carry in a vehicle when they used the words "no person shall carry".

**SevenMilePete** · July 12th, 2016, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by pghplr

What if you do have a LTCF. Is there any limits as to how you can transport in a car. For example, can you have a pistol sitting on your passenger seat? Either loaded or unloaded with the bullets beside it? Or even a rifle for that matter. I ask cause I sometimes(or not, depending on the outcome of my question) just throw the guns in with me when I go to the range. I'm not sure what the law is if you possess a CCW.

Personally, I would not do that. If you get stopped, for some stupid reason, do you want a police officer coming up to your car, and seeing a gun on the seat next to you, while you try to explain that you have a LTCF? Throw them in your trunk. Conceal your carry gun. Just my opinion, of course.

**Deadpan** · July 13th, 2016, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

I'm still trying to find a case where a legal person without a LTCF was arrested/charged/convicted in Philly of 6108 because they had an unloaded rifle in their vehicle. Such a case would then mean "carry upon the streets or public property" includes transporting in a vehicle and not just physically carrying outside the vehicle.

There are numerous cases where people have had convictions for carrying firearms in a vehicle in Philly upheld (Com. v. Baldwin, Com. v. Maldonado, Com. v. Walton etc.) I don't see any special relevance to whether the gun was a "firearm" or a rifle (or a shotgun), given that the prohibition applies equally to all of the listed types of firearms. In the above case of Walton¹, the appellant was apparently "clean" but unlicensed and attempted to claim himself exempt from licensing.

¹Walton was a Superior Court case but is misidentified on Google Scholar as a Supreme Court case.

**Storm88000** · July 13th, 2016, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by SevenMilePete

Personally, I would not do that. If you get stopped, for some stupid reason, do you want a police officer coming up to your car, and seeing a gun on the seat next to you, while you try to explain that you have a LTCF? Throw them in your trunk. Conceal your carry gun. Just my opinion, of course.

It gets worse. What bugs me is when they say something like this:

"Sir do you have any contraband in the vehicle, you know drugs, knives, guns?"

What are you supposed to say to that if you have a valid LTCF and your firearm is in the car? During a traffic stop? Its happened to me. Thats literally how the cop asked me. If you hesitate to answer that could be seriously bad news. So I just said "no officer" - what a bunch of horseshit. Putting legally carrying a gun in your car in the same category as illegal drugs.

**Deadpan** · July 13th, 2016, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

I'm still trying to find a case where a legal person without a LTCF was arrested/charged/convicted in Philly of 6108 because they had an unloaded rifle in their vehicle. Such a case would then mean "carry upon the streets or public property" includes transporting in a vehicle and not just physically carrying outside the vehicle.

Originally Posted by twency

I don't know if you'd find such a case, but it's really not necessary.

We know from 18 Pa C.S. § 6109 that the legislature uses the words "carry" and "carrying" to refer both to the act of carrying in the manner "concealed on or about one's person" and the act of carrying in the manner "in a vehicle".

Since § 6108 prohibits "carry" without modification or limitation as to the manner of carry (just the location upon streets or public property in Philly) we can reasonably conclude § 6108 prohibits both concealed carry and vehicle carry when it prohibits unlicensed "carry".

Given the demonstrably anti-gun tendencies of the courts in recent cases ("any person" doesn't include PA residents for vehicle carry purposes, "other lawful purpose" includes almost no purposes that weren't mentioned before the word "other") it is difficult to imagine the courts concluding the legislature intended to prohibit unlicensed carry on foot but not unlicensed carry in a vehicle when they used the words "no person shall carry".

The only time that I'm aware of PA courts addressing the meaning of "carry" is Com v. Festa, which involved a predecessor of 6106. The Superior Court wrote:

"Carry has been defined as "To have or bear upon or about one's person, as watch or weapon; locomotion not being essential. State v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 130 N.E. 663, 665; Danal v. State, 14 Ala. App. 97, 71 So. 976." Black's Law Dictionary, 3rd Ed., p. 283. In a prosecution for carrying concealed weapons, accused may be guilty although from the time he placed the pistol in his pocket until it was taken by the arresting officer he had not walked even as much as a step, but had been standing still; the word "carry" being used in the sense of a connection between the weapon and the carrier so "that the locomotion of the body would carry with it the weapon as concealed." Thomas v. State, 9 Ala.App. 67, 64 So. 192, 193. The Commonwealth need not prove more than the presence of the firearm in the car while accused was inside."¹

I suppose that you could read that either way with regards to 6108, but I think that the courts would likely find that it includes having a firearm in a vehicle as it would still be possessed "about one's person" and would travel with the person as they moved, so I agree with Twency. As I pointed out in my above post, there have been numerous cases of people convicted under 6108 for having handguns in their vehicles, I'm not aware of anyone even raising the issue of carrying in a vehicle vs. on their person.

¹I typed that in by hand. There may be minor errors.

**Maestro** · July 13th, 2016, 02:30 PM

My legally owned and carried firearm is not contraband. The answer is no.

**RockIsland** · July 13th, 2016, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Maestro

My legally owned and carried firearm is not contraband. The answer is no.

"No Officer, there is no contraband or anything illegal in my car."

I'm pretty sure all the Contra bands have disbanded anyhow.

**SevenMilePete** · July 13th, 2016, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Storm88000

It gets worse. What bugs me is when they say something like this:

"Sir do you have any contraband in the vehicle, you know drugs, knives, guns?"

What are you supposed to say to that if you have a valid LTCF and your firearm is in the car? During a traffic stop? Its happened to me. Thats literally how the cop asked me. If you hesitate to answer that could be seriously bad news. So I just said "no officer" - what a bunch of horseshit. Putting legally carrying a gun in your car in the same category as illegal drugs.

I've never been asked in PA. But if asked in that manner, I'll do it the same way. Thx! Everyone says that the SP run a check to see if you have a LTCF, but no SP trooper has ever asked me, and I've never volunteered the info.