To Double Tap or Not.... And Why??

[TonyF]

PAUSE FOR QUESTION: is the first double more or less instictive shooting, or are you still making sure you see your sights?

The first round fired of an accelerated pair is not instinctive or point shooting. The first round fired is done with the benefit of a confirmed sight picture.

TonyilikesightsF

[synergy]

My defense training is all double tap.

Who taught you that?

When I develop a sight picture, the target gets two rounds so fast that they almost sound like one shot. There is also no lowering or waiting afterwards.....the gun stays up and the next sight picture is being assembled WHILE the threat is being assessed and if necessary the next two rounds are sent as soon as a viable sight picture is aquired. The thing noone realizes is that the double tap in and of itself will prevent you from wildly firing your gun until it's empty. It takes practice and control to perform properly and you won't do it if you don't practice it. All this other stuff about controlled pairs, etc is unecessarily complicating a very simple and effective technique. I don't practice them and I won't take the time to decide which method I need to employ in a given situation. I also do all my personal defense practice at about 10 feet or less. Personal combat is not Olympic target shooting. I have other pistols I use for target play at higher distances and those I shoot one shot at a time. Just my 2 cents.

So, who'd you train with that led you to believe that shooting 2 shots at a time was the way to win gunfights?

[topsykretts]

Who taught you that?



So, who'd you train with that led you to believe that shooting 2 shots at a time was the way to win gunfights?

You didn't actually read what he said, did you?

No where in his post does it say "shoot two shots at a time, every time, absolutely! this is set in stone!"

[synergy]

You didn't actually read what he said, did you?

No where in his post does it say "shoot two shots at a time, every time, absolutely! this is set in stone!"

Really?

My defense training is all double tap. When I develop a sight picture, the target gets two rounds so fast that they almost sound like one shot. There is also no lowering or waiting afterwards.....the gun stays up and the next sight picture is being assembled WHILE the threat is being assessed and if necessary the next two rounds are sent as soon as a viable sight picture is aquired. The thing noone realizes is that the double tap in and of itself will prevent you from wildly firing your gun until it's empty. It takes practice and control to perform properly and you won't do it if you don't practice it. All this other stuff about controlled pairs, etc is unecessarily complicating a very simple and effective technique. I don't practice them and I won't take the time to decide which method I need to employ in a given situation.

Could have fooled me...

[Kaos]

This is why you practice drills with another partner. For anyone who has seen "art of the tactical carbine" or has taken a training class there's a lot of persistent change in how many rounds you pump into the target.

In AOTTC they have some really slick targets that have numbers inside of shapes that are filled in with colors.

During drills you'll hear Costa or Haley shout out "3 rounds yellow" and you have to scan your particular target for yellow shapes...and put three rounds into them. Sometimes they'd yell "1, 4,5, 7" and you'd have to shoot targets 1,4,5 and 7...round count up to the shooter. 5 rounds, circle...etc etc.

When you train with another person or in a class they add in stress, and while it would never be the same as in real life you want some simulated stress....you let the other person you're running drills with dictate which targets you're engaging and how much firepower. They might come up with some wacky combinations where you're going across the range from right to left and possibly even shooting the same targets again before your drill is up.

There is no solid answer to this "double tap" question.

Hopefully there really isn't a debate going on about a sight picture being a good thing or not...or I might have to hit the bottle early tonight.

[kpw]

Kinda funny how things change. The first couple of courses I took in the late 80's taught us the same thing. Fire 2, be ready to fire 2 more. Seemed to make sense back then. Most of us carried wheelguns at the time.

[synergy]

This is why you practice drills with another partner. For anyone who has seen "art of the tactical carbine" or has taken a training class there's a lot of persistent change in how many rounds you pump into the target.

In AOTTC they have some really slick targets that have numbers inside of shapes that are filled in with colors.

During drills you'll hear Costa or Haley shout out "3 rounds yellow" and you have to scan your particular target for yellow shapes...and put three rounds into them. Sometimes they'd yell "1, 4,5, 7" and you'd have to shoot targets 1,4,5 and 7...round count up to the shooter. 5 rounds, circle...etc etc.

When you train with another person or in a class they add in stress, and while it would never be the same as in real life you want some simulated stress....you let the other person you're running drills with dictate which targets you're engaging and how much firepower. They might come up with some wacky combinations where you're going across the range from right to left and possibly even shooting the same targets again before your drill is up.

There is no solid answer to this "double tap" question.

Hopefully there really isn't a debate going on about a sight picture being a good thing or not...or I might have to hit the bottle early tonight.

The VTAC 1-5 drill is another example of drills specifically designed to break you of the "always 2 rounds" habits that come with IDPA and the like.


Judging by some of the comments I've read...make sure you drink plenty of water before you go to bed, Josh.

[Leftloose]

Quote:
Originally Posted by topsykretts
You didn't actually read what he said, did you?

No where in his post does it say "shoot two shots at a time, every time, absolutely! this is set in stone!"

Really?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftloose
My defense training is all double tap. When I develop a sight picture, the target gets two rounds so fast that they almost sound like one shot. There is also no lowering or waiting afterwards.....the gun stays up and the next sight picture is being assembled WHILE the threat is being assessed and if necessary the next two rounds are sent as soon as a viable sight picture is aquired. The thing noone realizes is that the double tap in and of itself will prevent you from wildly firing your gun until it's empty. It takes practice and control to perform properly and you won't do it if you don't practice it. All this other stuff about controlled pairs, etc is unecessarily complicating a very simple and effective technique. I don't practice them and I won't take the time to decide which method I need to employ in a given situation.

Could have fooled me...
__________________
Yeah.......If I'm in a life or death defensive situtation....UNLESS engaged by multiple targets....... my first target is gonna get two rounds pumped into him. NOW, all that being cleared up, I am ACT 235 and have had to re-qualify several times....there is NO double tap for that...you need every round to be very precise. I also have done training with other people where we simulated multiple marked targets with one person shooting and the other calling out viable targets.....it's fun and works well..... There is a HUGE difference between target practice, competition practice and personal defense practice, in my book. Just my opinion of course. I am NOT on any sort of RECON team or SWAT team and I don't pretend to be..... The very first part of my very first sentence said "My defense training.." that does NOT mean all my training is defense training......nowhere does it say that.......as pointed out by topsykretts....

[Mtbkski]

Never saw the 1-5 drill before. That will be something I have to try this year.

[synergy]

Yeah.......If I'm in a life or death defensive situtation....UNLESS engaged by multiple targets....... my first target is gonna get two rounds pumped into him. NOW, all that being cleared up, I am ACT 235 and have had to re-qualify several times....there is NO double tap for that...you need every round to be very precise. I also have done training with other people where we simulated multiple marked targets with one person shooting and the other calling out viable targets.....it's fun and works well..... There is a HUGE difference between target practice, competition practice and personal defense practice, in my book. Just my opinion of course. I am NOT on any sort of RECON team or SWAT team and I don't pretend to be..... The very first part of my very first sentence said "My defense training.." that does NOT mean all my training is defense training......nowhere does it say that.......as pointed out by topsykretts....

Well, our opinions of precise differ, I guess.
I don't call any shot that lands on here "precise", even at 15 yards.


You said that "you defensive training is all double taps". You also said that the rest is unnecessary, that you don't practice it, and that you won't use it if ever need be. That kinda sounds to me like you have your mind made up.

Ok, so you went through an ACT 235 class. So, is that where you picked this idea up that "double taps" are the ticket? Because you said that they're not even required on the qualification....