Guns drawn and surrounded by 12 of moon townships finest tonight

[TonyF]

Italic added by me. I don't think every PD will know OC is legal just because some training was updated. Nor do I think they will know it because it is in the UFA. But I KNOW based upon the OP account of this event that this PD DID know it was legal, but decided to flex their muscles in an attempt to teach him a lesson. That lesson; We don't like citizens OC so we will educate you on the troubles it can cause and the dangers to your life it represents to you.

What about this citizen's desire to go about his business and return home safely and alive? These LEO put that at grave risk.

I'm not disputing any of that, but there is another element to this incident and it is the circuitous route the OP was walking. That is exactly the kind of behavior that signals to an LEO that the person in question might be up to something other than an innocent late night stroll.

[adymond]

I'm not disputing any of that, but there is another element to this incident and it is the circuitous route the OP was walking. That is exactly the kind of behavior that signals to an LEO that the person in question might be up to something other than an innocent late night stroll.

I will defer to your judgement about the route, but it sounds as though this is the regular route this person takes. I don't live in the area and don't know the streets. All of that aside, the LEO do not have the authority to surround anyone walking where it may indicate that there is some potential RAS to stop them and draw down on them.

What should have happened is the LEO should have approached the OP and attempted to make contact with him. Not execute a "felony stop" on him, illegally search him, seize his property, make threats to his well being, and commit official oppression because they thought he might maybe have been up to no good. That said I still think that view is total BS since they openly acknowledged that they knew OC was legal, but that it caused problems like this. Clearly this was nothing more than the local PD flexing their muscles because they do not like "civillians" OCing.

[bige64]

I'm not disputing any of that, but there is another element to this incident and it is the circuitous route the OP was walking. That is exactly the kind of behavior that signals to an LEO that the person in question might be up to something other than an innocent late night stroll.

The OP walks this route almost every night at the same time with an OC firearm...

[TonyF]

Did you take into account their jack-bootedly asking, multiple times, "Do you see what exercising your God-given rights gets you? Do you see?"

That was after they had determined he was not engaged in any criminal activity.

Is it LE's responsibility to offer guidance or chastise citizens? No.

Are they human and hold opinions on matters just like the rest of us? Yes.

Is it a crime for LE to offer an opinion to someone with whom they have just interacted?

After all, OC has only been "not prohibited" since... 1664 or so. Give 'em TIME, man!

I know, hows about we sentence all OC-ignorant LEO's to participate in this forum until they are re-programmed to your satisfaction?

[GunLawyer001]

Silent leges inter arma.

When surrounded by drawn guns, the case law is scant comfort. Comply with their demands until your circumstances are safer.

[Himni]

time for some OC get togethers in both Moon and Squirrel Hill. Westies, lets make this happen.



OH, one other thing, GET A LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I second both suggestions. I am always willing for a OC get together. I OC in Squirrel hill once or twice a week but I rarely go to moon but I am open for any location in western PA. Just let me know the date and place and I'll be there.

To the OP good luck with talking to a lawyer. IANAL but I think you have a case against these officers that went way way past the line. Do it not only for yourself but anyone else these officers may harass. The next time they do something illegal like this an innocent person could get shot because one of the officers thinks they are making a bad move or because they have a itchy trigger finger.

I think you did a good job but if I were you I would get a voice recorder so if they try anything again you can record what they say and use it in a court of law against them.

[adymond]

That was after they had determined he was not engaged in any criminal activity.

This does not require 12 officers in 6 cars detaining a citizen with guns drawn.

[Robert Kayland]

Yeah. Keep talking until they offer you a free tour of the holding cell down at the station. Be sure to remind them you are a taxpayer and have rights. Heck, if you can get one of them nervous enough to shoot you, you might become an Internet hero.

Ah, to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with other giants in that Pantheon, like the "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" fellow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

[Adam-12]

I know, hows about we sentence all OC-ignorant LEO's to participate in this forum until they are re-programmed to your satisfaction?

So you have no problem with hiring a man, handing him a gun, and commanding him to go forth and enforce the law, when he doesn't know what it is? You do see the problem with that, I hope?

But as Headcase keeps pointing out, they knew full well the man wasn't breaking any laws. And if they had RAS, they would have said something like, "Please be careful; we saw you in their back yard and mistook you for a prowler." But that's not what they said. They said, "See what happens to you when you aren't breaking any laws or doing anything wrong? You see what can happen to you for no fucking reason whenever we feel like jacking you up?"

[TonyF]

I will defer to your judgement about the route, but it sounds as though this is the regular route this person takes. I don't live in the area and don't know the streets.

But how do we know that the person who called 911 had ever seen him walk that route? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they hadn't.

All of that aside, the LEO do not have the authority to surround anyone walking where it may indicate that there is some potential RAS to stop them and draw down on them.

What should have happened is the LEO should have approached the OP and attempted to make contact with him. Not execute a "felony stop" on him, illegally search him, seize his property, make threats to his well being, and commit official oppression because they thought he might maybe have been up to no good. That said I still think that view is total BS since they openly acknowledged that they knew OC was legal, but that it caused problems like this. Clearly this was nothing more than the local PD flexing their muscles because they do not like "civillians" OCing.

Again, in my original reply I was not commenting on whether the behavior of the responding LE was over the top. I was commenting on "why" they responded in the manner they did.

Don't you folks think that understanding "why" LE responds the way they do on occasion is important in formulating an effort to reform some of the heavy handed methods used by some LEO's?

Ladies and gentlemen,

Carry on.