The reasons I hardly visit the forum...

**BerksCountyDave** · September 23rd, 2008, 01:18 PM

So you don't like the site because we don't all think the way you do? Because topics are discussed and views expressed that you think are stupid? Then don't go into those threads. Start your own threads about the things you want to talk about. But bashing your fellow gun owners on the basis of opinion? Wow.

**NineseveN** · September 23rd, 2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Chazman321

1. The OC vs. CC debate... This is just getting stupid. If you don't OC, you're viewed as an unpatriotic dillhole who wants nothing more than to have their rights trampled on. I'm sorry, but yes, there is more of a risk OC'ing than concealing...

It is no less unreasonable to ascribe the actions of a minority of OC folks to the whole than it is to ascribe the actions of a minority of CC folks to that whole. One person who OC’s is no more responsible for your feelings being hurt or for someone who OC’s engaging in negative behavior with you insofar as the comments you paraphrased above than you are for the army of CC trolls that ran this issue into the mud in the first place. One of the worst of them is posting in this very thread and has the nerve to be calling other members out by name and say the site changed because of them (and I got news for him, he’s part of the problem and always has been and I don’t think he ever offered anything to this site, so he most likely hasn’t been missed).

Furthermore, I see this generalization a lot, but I have often asked for specific examples of this happening in threads on this forum, and no one can conjure up anything to support their argument that OC folks just lash out without cause against others. Sure, if you provoke them with the derogatory ‘macho man mall-ninja wannabe looking for attention and be a victim’ comments, they come back just as hard. People who OC are not Jesus, and they’re not required to simply turn the other cheek so that the trolls on this board can wage their own private agenda war completely unfettered. And if a bunch of hunters came here and started insulting those of us that own “assault weapons”, they’d get the same treatment, and it would appear righteous, even to those that like to cherry pick these things out of the OC/CC debate and use them to slam one side or the other. It’s blatant and it’s despicable, even when you do it, Chaz.

2. Moderators playing favorites... If someone flames another person, it's fine if that person is a buddy with the moderator, if not or if the moderator doesn't like what that person says, their post gets deleted or they get banned... I've seen posts disappear, but I never, ever, seen a moderator say they deleted a post or said why.

This is hardly as underhanded as you’re making it out to be. With any system comprised of human beings, bias and error is inevitable, it’s the natural form that such a thing takes over time. Sure it happens, so what? There is no forum on earth that is moderated by human beings where this doesn’t occur to some extent. If you’re suggesting that it’s such a large scale problem here that it’s become serious, then I’d like for you to truly articulate it. Even if not for the benefit of the rest of us, but for yourself, go ahead and catalog all of the warnings both public and private that the mods send out here, count the number of bans for the known list of “favorites” against the number of ‘undesirables’. Catalog the number of times each gets warned before the ban and see what you come up with. Generalizations are undoubtedly convenient, but yours are hardly accurate.

The known problem people, the actual trolls, get numerous warnings in each and every thread before they’re actually banned, whereas someone like Headcase might get warned in one thread and then banned in the next with no additional warning. In this scenario, is there obvious bias against him? No, in most cases, it’s simply because he knows better, and the powers that be know he knows better and expect his conduct to be maintained accordingly. So while some ignorant asshat troll might get a bunch of warnings in each and every thread before they get banned (each and every time), people such as myself or Headcase might get one warning via PM and then the banhammer comes out if we don’t reel our behavior in a little.

Is it fair? I dunno, ask Headcase how fair he felt it was. Me, I’ve never been banned and I’ve only been warned twice IIRC, both times it was probably warranted. When I get warned or receive an infraction, I understand that it’s not vendetta, it’s just that I’m likely not conducting myself to the level that I should be or that the staff here expects me to, and I do some self-reflection and move on. If I felt it was unfair, I could make a stand, fight it and probably get myself banned…those are my choices.

3. People asking for money. I'm sorry, but if you do something and get in trouble, your fault or not, I'm not paying for it. I have kids, I have bills, and all are more important than keeping most anyone on here out of jail. If the OC people get told they'll lose their LTCF for OC, and they do it anyways, why should everybody else chip in to pay your lawyer fees? When I had two guns stolen, did I ever ask for people to buy me a new one?

As has been said, those threads are started by people that want to help, not by the person in question asking for money on their own. I recall one case where someone asked for money but wouldn’t actually provide details…that request fell on mostly deaf ears (and rightfully so). I’m sure you aren’t suggesting that you care how others spend their time and money, so I don’t know what you’re getting at. If you could furnish an example of someone doing something, getting in trouble and then asking for money themselves here, I think we’d all have a better idea of what it is that you’re complaining about.

Furthermore, it’s not about whether or not people should expect trouble when they do something, it’s about whether or not they should accept trouble. If I call 9-1-1 because my child fell and hit her head and then when the police and medics come, if they seize my guns because I had them laying out on display, should I not complain? Should I not sue? I did nothing illegal, but in the minds of some people, it would be common sense to have all of my guns locked away and disassembled since I have a child in the home. What did I expect? The cops came and saw what, in their opinion, was unsafe, so they seized my guns even though they had no legal basis or authority to do so. That’s my fault, right?

If some hunter at my local range sees my AR-15 and calls the cops, and they come and seize it so that they can determine whether or not it’s a machine gun, should I not be upset? Should I not tell them that I have a right to own and use that firearm? Should I not fight it? They had no legal authority to do what they did, but somehow I should have maybe known better because hunters belong to my club and they’re afraid of assault weapons, I should have know better and been respectful to those fears. Isn’t that called projection, Chaz? Is that really a rational and valid mechanism with which to provide for the litmus test of whether or not one should exercise their rights in this country?

If my neighbor sees me carrying my SAR or VEPR in from my car after a day at the range and the police are called, when they come and seize my guns and arrest me on suspicion of terrorism or owning an illegal machine gun, should I not be upset? Should I not fight it? Or should I just accept my lumps because I should have known better than to carry a firearm from my vehicle to my home in a legal manner because some people are afraid or don’t like guns like that. I should have been more diligent in hiding the fact that it was a gun by hiding it in the box to my daughter’s hobby horse I bought her three Christmases ago, right?

And, not to invoke a sister to Godwin’s Law, but I guess the girl that gets raped shouldn’t have worn that skirt so short either, it’s disrespectful to tempt the rapists and all other men like that. I mean, let’s blame the victim for precipitating the actions of the criminal, let’s make people that OC responsible for the criminal actions of law enforcement officers in dealing with said people. That’s absurd.

What you’re doing is passively-aggressively (and somewhat outright aggressively) blaming the victim and allowing the perpetrators and parties to the violation project their fears, opinions and feelings onto others in a manner that seems to imply that such a thing should dictate the law and what’s right. That’s bullshit, Chaz, and I can’t believe I’m reading this garbage from you, of all people.

4. No women moderators. There are plenty of women on here that could do the job well. There should be a forum just for women. Many women think shooting is only for middle-aged white men, and plenty of women shoot and carry. Their needs are much different than ours.

Perhaps the staff doesn’t feel that there are any women here that are qualified to be a moderator, or maybe they don’t know them enough (they haven’t been around long) or there are some questions still left to be answered. Or maybe, just maybe, it’s an ongoing discussion for them, just not a public one, and when the right person steps up or comes along, maybe they’ll be bumped up to mod. Maybe not. The point is, I don’t know, and neither do you. I’m not a fan of affirmative action, so bumping someone to moderator simply because they’re a female isn’t really a good idea IMHO. If the staff isn’t comfortable for one reason or another with the female candidates they have to choose from or with a female mod just because the person is a female, then that’s their prerogative. Everyone likes to think they’d make a good moderator on a forum just because they know a few things or they’re a nice person, but that’s just not the case. There are plenty of awesome people on this forum that don’t seem to project the kind of decision-making ability and rationality that a moderator needs. Maybe they have it, but they’re not always showing it. And again, we don’t really know what’s behind that, maybe it is misogynistic, that sucks, it’s garbage but this is a privately run website, so we don’t get to make the rules.

Also, a forum just for women divides and segregates, it gives the women a place to go and be and they often tend not to mingle outside of that realm. Check other forums that have tried this and you’ll see what I mean. In my opinion, rather than giving them their own place so they can be included yet separate, we should be doing as much as we can to make all of PAFOA.org inviting to the female shooters in this state. What that is, I don’t know, but their own forum just encourages an increase in the divide, much like a separate OC and CC forum scheme. Avoiding confrontation doesn’t heal, mend or solve, it merely deflects and allows the issue to fester and build. It encourages division, and as such, it’s not a solution; such things are merely adhesive bandages on bullet wounds. Is there a better way? I don’t know, that’s for the staff and owners to decide, but I’d think that the principle of encouraging different groups to learn to coexist in the same space would go a lot further towards bringing us together than separating us with more invisible walls would.

5. Really, really, bad advice... Why on Earth would you tell someone to not show their ID to a police officer? Who cares if you don't legally have to? If you think trying to "educate" or prove a point is worth you getting handcuffed and arrested, and then needing a lawyer (see number 3), then go right ahead. But please, stop telling other people to follow suit... Unless you have the money to pay their lawyer personally, I view it as your fault.

You have absolutely no right to tell others what to post, your only recourse here is within your own words. If you want your view to be presented, your option is to offer it yourself, not to demand that others stop posting their own views and offer yours instead. In terms of bad legal advice, I would agree, but you’re talking about a choice in doing two different things that are both completely legal and asserting your choice as the only standard that matters. That’s arrogant, short-sighted and self-centered, and I would have expected better from you.

6. Cop bashing. Just stop it. If you feel you can do the job better than they can, become a police officer. A lot of my friends are cops and state troopers, and they put up with a lot of crap. There is no reason someone should be out there talking badly aout them. The only people that usually don't like the police are people that have done something wrong. Don't be that person, and you should have no problems...

If cops don’t want to be bashed, they should stop breaking the law. Don’t be that cop, and anyone other than that cop should have no problems. Cops are not a sacred cow, they are not above scrutiny or reproach, and your opinion is indicative of someone who is willfully ignorant to the traumatic nightmare that one is put through when they’ve been illegally injured (physically or as in a depravation of rights) by law enforcement. I just can’t believe I’m reading such an insensitive and unrelentingly narrow-minded rant from you Chaz, I just don’t know what to say.

In summary, we gun owners are supposed to be the cream of the crop. We're supposed to show the general public and the police that we are genuinly good people, who just want to make sure we have a tool to protect ourselves. It doesn't matter if we win or not in court cases, it's the fact that we're putting ourselves out there looking like nut jobs.

You seem to care more about your own image than about the rights of others. That’s fine, that’s your right to hold that viewpoint, but don’t expect others to rush in behind you in support of such a thing. You seem to have this notion that if we, as gun owners, seem reasonable and willing to tolerate certain infringements upon our rights, that we’ll be left alone. With all due respect, it’s that exact attitude and people that feel the same way you do that got us in this pickle of gun control in the first place. You can thank that attitude for the AWB, concealed carry licenses in lieu of Alaska or Vermont Carry, the machine gun ban and federal and state restrictions on suppressors…too many people willing to run off and appear reasonable at the feet of those that would strip us of our right to keep and bear arms entirely. Whether or not we win in court often means everything; or would you have suggested that Dick Heller and the other plaintiffs been more reasonable and not challenge the law in order to get standing for a court battle? One, in this case, that may prove to be the single biggest blow against the door to the empowerment of gun owners in the form of a serious reduction in gun control and the legal affirmation of our rights as intended by the founding fathers of this great nation.

If someone asks you to cover your gun, be respectful and do it. If you don't want to and they call the police, don't dare come on here and complain about how you were right and now your children are emotionally scared because Daddy tried to prove a point and got arrested at dinner... People complain they want respect, but then act disrespectfully to everyone they meet. And the worse part is, others applaud them.

For someone in the mental health field, in this thread, you continue to show yourself incapable of making a calm and rational assessment of the trauma someone may have experienced in having their rights stepped upon and treated like a criminal for doing absolutely nothing illegal whatsoever. That’s a shame, because I would have liked to think you more capable than that, especially given your position and the pride with which you present it to the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Chazman321

Face it, this site has changed and not for the better. A community such as this should be about answering questions, talking about different guns, and giving an overall good impression to the general public about gun owners. Instead, I see "lawsuit" in most every post, and OC going from a discussion we heard once a month to once an hour.

But you don’t get to decide what this site is about, it’s not your site, and you’re not the only member whose opinion counts. Forums such as these take the shape of what the majority wants it to insofar as those topics will be discussed more. If you want to counterbalance that, then your agenda is not served by making a self-serving thread for attention, it’s served simply by posting about what you want more often. You cannot expect others to do the work for you, you can’t tell people they need to post about what you want them to, that’s ridiculous and your projecting your desires onto the shoulders of others, making it their responsibility when it isn’t. The only person on this forum that is responsible to what you want to read and see posted is you. If you can’t fulfill that role, then instead of lashing outwardly, you should be looking inward at yourself and reassess what this site means for you and what you can reasonably expect for yourself based on the commitment to it that you can actually provide.

Some people, it seems, would rather bitch and moan and insult and denigrate others with personal attacks and demeaning criticisms than do the work to make this place into what they want it to be. That’s a shame, because that means that this isn’t about what’s good for the forum, Chaz, it then becomes about you and what you want. And the problem is not that one group with a certain mindset or viewpoint is dominant, because you’d obviously just as soon assume that role yourself if you could; it’s that the group that is dominant doesn’t agree with you. This isn’t about making this a better place, it’s about making a place you like better, to hell with the rest of the people here, an obvious majority (even if slightly) that are making this place into what they want it to be the only way they can, by discussing the things that are interesting and important to them.

It's about personal responsibility above all else. Nobody gives me a dang thing in life, I work hard for everything I have. If I do something wrong (which is objective, not legal) then I pay the price. If I OC and go mouthing off to everyone that I can do as I please because I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm a dumbass that deserves to get arrested and have my LTCF revoked. It does reflect upon your character for being a douchebag... There is a time and place for everything. If you're not considerate of other people around you, how does that show good character? Just because two people with Disassociative Personality Disorder, say it's a good thing no matter where you're going or what you're doing, doesn't mean you should follow suit. To OC all the way across the state for something that happened in my neighborhood, is not helping anything becuase you're NOT HERE!!!

The insults and claims of mental illness are uncalled for here, and if the moderation was as fair as you say you want it to be, you’d have been given and infraction for basically saying that Greg and Rich have a specific mental disorder as an attempt at an insult and to diminish their standing here. Whatever respect I had for you, not that it matters to you, because you only seem to care about yourself, that respect is gone. I hope you’re just having an off-day, I’d like to see you take a deep breath, reassess these things that seem to be so deeply personal to you when they really shouldn’t be, and come back with a clear head and approach these things with a little bit of honesty and understanding.

**Asterix909** · September 23rd, 2008, 01:53 PM